Value of the Overdubs; Compare Raspberries vs. Cream

[Billy K.]

One of the local radio stations got a tape of the recent Cream concerts in New York. In fact, they played "Badge" on the air.

Although both Raspberries and Cream have been apart for 30 years, and both have a leader called Eric C., the similarities end there.

Cream had to kind of come up with "composite" parts, to cover the holes where things were overdubbed in the studio. In songs like "Sunshine of Your Love" they can get by minus one guitar.

But in songs like "Badge", it doesn't sound exactly the same with just one guitar part. Plus the piano part is missing. And although I did not get to hear "White Room", I can imagine how it would sound without the second guitar part. tympani, AND the viola(which many people--including myself---thought was an third guitar).

Still, not to slam Cream. Great songs, great performances from virtuoso musicians. Surely a different approach; and there's no "right" or "wrong" way to set up a performing band.

This is to prove a point. Listen to the new Cream concert disc, right before and/or after listening to the 'Berries live........sounds rather barren.

.....and you can appreciate better what the

Overdubs are doing......

[darlene]

Point *very* well taken, Billy. No doubt that's exactly what Eric and the guys wanted to prevent.

And they have the most beautiful, rich full sound. EVERYTHING is covered, and then some.

--Darlene

[Jimmy the Nick]

Billy. Great hot topic. When you listen to Eric's interviews, he and the boys really wanted to stay true to the recordings...and the concerts have.

At the same time, I would haved loved to have been in NY to see just the four of them do that encore jam. I hear is was ear-gasmic.

You're right Billy. No right or wrong. I think part of the mystique of Cream was that they were just a three-piece, and to do that today takes some cahoines.

[mellie]

There's no doubt about it - adding the Overdubs was a very smart move for the guys. They give studio sound to the stage.

[Raspbernie]

Having witnessed both…

Raspberries live: !!!

Cream live: Zzz

Bernie

[JohnO]

I think the Overdubs give the Raspberries the kind of edge that Brian Wilson's been getting in his live performances from his 8-9 piece band. Much more lush instrumentation and vocals, much more of a studio sound (although...in Brian's case, he can't really sing the high parts himself live anymore, and he uses Jeffrey Foskett for that - Brian's range nowadays in closer to Mike Love's old parts. At least Eric can still sing his old material, even if they have lowered the key on a couple of songs to better preserve his voice.) I wonder....if Eric, Wally & co. go back into the studio, will they use the Overdubs.....or do their own overdubs?

[raspberrywine]

Cream has the luxury of having had more basic recordings which are well suited towards extended jams and improvization. And ofcourse they were notorious for doing so. So they really arent under

any pressure to remain faithful to the structure of the song, as first recorded. The Raspberries songs were so well crafted and deep, in terms of the harmonies and structure, that there is an expectation from fans, I believe, that the songs should be delivered in a manner that is faithful to the orginal recordings. They certainly have accomplished this! I dont think Raspberries fans necessarily have a need to see "I can Remember" or "Go All the Way" tampered with. However I could see numbers such as "Partys Over" being supplemented by a more extended jam with additional playing by Wally. So there are a couple Raspberries songs that lend themselves to a little more improvization. As I mentioned in some other thread, I do believe Jack Bruce and Eric have some similarity in their singing style. Each have sort of a gritty R&B and a traditional crooner thing going simultaneosly. Each employed falsetto when necessary. I think they are both not only incredible talents singing wise but have very distinct and interesting tonalities in their voices.

[Billy K.]

Good points, all of you!

[oldblue]

First of all, I love both bands (of course, one has the edge in my devotion - guess which? ). That having been said, as raspberrywine stated, improvisation was the key to Cream's live performance. Both Cream and Led Zeppelin were known for defiantly refusing to play "according to the record" and sticking to what the what those 3 or 4 musicians were capable of performing. Cream, in fact, prided themselves on playing blues-rock in a jazz-like context - which set off the legendary Ginger Baker / Elvin Jones feud. The fact that both Cream and Zep were able to create a completely different reality in regard to those live performances is a testimonial to their talent, and though they were known to have notorious "off-nights", the material on "Wheels of Fire" and "How the West Was Won" is phenomenal.

I could never imagine Clapton/Bruce/Baker would ever agree to play on stage as Cream with additional musicians. But that's not what people come to their concert to see, whereas Raspberries fans have such an intense connection to the lyrics, melody, and production in the original form that a departure from that standard might not be as appropriate. Perhaps it simply like comparing peaches and raspberries , both have a distinctive and valued flavor all their own.

[raspberrywine]

I think alot of people agree with comments made by both Eric and Wally that extended guitar solos can actually become boring. Not to take away from Claptons virtuosity, but the extended solo to "White Room" can end up sounding alot like the solo on " Tales of Brave Ulysses " when performed live. Theres alot to be said for guitar solos which accomplish a purpose, in terms of the context of the song, as opposed to free-form jamming. Ofcourse it all depends on a person's taste. I like a memorable guitar lick as opposed to a lengthy one. "Tonight" is the example of a very memorable guitar lick. I think one the most moving guitar solos ever done is Harrison's in Something, but its often overlooked. Some people need to play for two or three minutes straight to capture a great moment or two.