Carmen....better than McCartney, Lennon, and Wilson...??

[Lawyer fan]

Clearly, Eric C. displayed tremendous talent as a pop song writer. While the big names ( McC, Lennon, Brian Wilson, Dylan, etc.. ) understandably garner more notice and praise, in one categoy, IMO, Eric has them beat....the ability to write songs that get to the essence to teenage "lust". ("...if we were older, we wouldn't have to be worried tonight.."). I only wish Eric would record more these days. Then again, he did his share... he deserves to enjoy life now though whatever mode he chooses. Enjoy. Marc

[Sally G]

Not to take anything away from Eric and his talent in this corner, but...

"She was just seventeen, you know what I mean..."

"...Hold me tight

Let me go on loving you

Tonight, tonight

Making love to only you..."

just a couple, but there are many more, not to mention *how* they were sung...

[JohnO]

Hmmmm....while Eric's clearly one of my favorites, and he's got that kind of talent, it's kinda hard to lump him in with those in your list, for two reasons: (1)simply on the basis of longevity at the top (with Brian's crazy sandbox years obviously excluded); and (2) originality. Dylan, Lennon, McCartney and Wilson are all viewed as bona-fide stone killer originals in terms of defining new genres of music, I think. Eric's a genius in his own right, as far as combining all of his roots and influences to create great songs.....but dammit, 3 of those 4 mentioned above ARE his influences!

And yeah, we could get into a p*ssing contest about whether that's all the Beatles did with Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, the Everlys, etc....and ditto, Brian W. with the Four Freshmen, Chuck Berry, etc. (NOTE: Dylan is an original...end of discussion.) However, I don't really recall any early reviews of Beatles or Beach Boys LPs, accusing them of swiping bits and pieces of others' work.....and I do recall reading such goodies, deserved or not, about the early Raspberries recordings.

Likewise, I would also like to see him record more......and put more loud guitars and Raspberries-like vocal harmonies into his new songs as well!

[JohnO]

Regarding just the teenage lust factor, BTW, I'd rank Chuck Berry as top of the class, with the Beatles and Brian W. both runner-ups...and this is just amongst the well-known ones we're talking about. There were others like Gene Vincent and Eddie Cochran who probably surpassed Berry in terms of capturing the essence of teenage horniness.....

(NOTE: However, it's just plain silly nowadays, watching and listening to a usually liquored-up Chuck Berry sing "School Days" or "Sweet Little Rock & Roller"........)

[marvin]

There's no winner in this contest but suffice it to say that any writer would be honored to be included in a discussion that involves McCartney, Lennon, Brian Wilson, Dylan etc.

Marv

[Lawyer fan]

Interesting how Ed Sullivan made The Stones change the lyrics to "let's spend some time together.." when they did his show. Mick was always the diplomat. The Doors, on the other hand,...".

[AnneG]

This one from Billy Joel always riveted me -

When the sun goes down

And the day is over

When the last of the light has gone

As they pour into the street

I will be getting closer

As the cars turn their headlights on

As they're closing it down

I'm gonna open it up

And while they're going to sleep

We'll just be starting to touch

I'm just beginning to feel

I'm just beginning to give

I'm just beginning to feel

I'm just beginning to live

Before I leave you again

Before the light of dawn

Before this evening can end

I have been waiting so long

[Tony Cartmill]

While these other guys get the recognition they deserve as great songwriters, Eric is in another category of under-appreciated great songwriters.

Oh, and he's great performer on stage as well.

[James]

I think he is good on stage with the Raspberries. But I was a bit disappointed with the last solo show I saw,..Fall of 1977 backing up Hall & Oates in Dallas.

Having said that, I think he is a song-writer who is better than the above mentioneds and second to none in the industry.

[seattlesteve]

I agree with Marvin. I think even Eric would be uncomfortable with his ranking among such lofty peers, all with similar but unique and different styles and influences.

Suffice it to say, it's a pretty cool, and deserving fraternity to be in.

Seattle Steve

[Tony Cartmill]

If it makes Eric uncomfortable calling him a songwriting genius, I guess I'll have to stop.

I know if makes me blush when all my women's calls me "Big Johnny Holmes."

[pierson]

in one category: "The Power Pop Song"

yes, Eric Carmen should be recognized as king... He took from the Beatles' "Please Please Me" and molded it with the energy of The Who & Small Faces and gave us the quintessential teenage lust song... nothing touches "Tonight," "Ecstasy" or "Go All The Way".... and no one has come close to them...

[darlene]

The depth and breath of Eric's musical talent alone justifies his place with McCartney, Brian Wilson and Dylan. If you're talking pure, unadulterated musical talent, he SURPASSES them.

Here comes the masters course in performance assessment rubrics I've been studying: Any time one begins to compare people and their accomplishments, it gets chaotic, because just comparing even their work is far too simplistic. Some are more accomplished innovators and some have more refined talent--their backgrounds starkly contrast in every way and even their approach to songwriting and their ability to write differ, etc.(ad infinitum!) Some of their finest talents are the most subtle ones that most critics (and the music-buying public) miss. And the body of work each has produced is so varied... Comparing apples and oranges doesn't work because each person in that list, however talented, is TOTALLY different from the others.

I stand on my statement that Eric's sheer musical gifts earn him a place not only among those three superstars, (and OTHERS as well), but in the forefront.

--Darlene

[Tony Cartmill]

Darlene, I'm shocked, just shocked that you feel this way!

[AnneG]

I think Eric deserves to be on "that list" whether he is assessed by a relative performance standard, or an absolute standard.

Anne

[Robin23]

I always enjoy reading these musical debates on songwriters and who is better than who..blah blah. So..I'll add my 2 cents. When I was 13, and all my friends were raving about the Beatles, I just didn't have the same passion for them as my friends. The music didn't touch me like the Raspberries did (when I was 19) Not sure if it was because I had grown up a bit, or because their music just seemed to talk to me where other songwriters could not. ?? All I know is that Eric's music has always done something that cannot be adequately put into words...it cannot be explained but it is so beautiful and wonderful and I LOVE the feeling the songs provide each time I hear them.

Robin

[LC]

Geez, I normally like to stay out of "who's best" discussions (okay, maybe not), but I'll throw my 2 cents in here too... I'm in The Marvin Camp --all the writers at this level are winners, and it's an endless argument if you try to rank 'em. All of these writers are originals, yet they all have their influences. So I'd respectfully disagree with JohnO's note that "Dylan is an original...end of discussion." Even Dylan had influences, don't you think? Old blues and country artists, Woody Guthrie, early Beatles....

I could listen to the work of the writers in this thread all day... Lennon/McCartney, Brian Wilson, EC, Dylan.... (All right, maybe Dylan is best in short bursts---he can get you feeling a little depressed after a while.)

As for EC's place.... Putting him at the top of the Power Pop genre works for me!

[JohnO]

LC - Your comment about Dylan just kinda proved my contention about his originality - "old blues and country artists"....yeah, I probably agree with that, but just who the Hell were they???

Woody G., yeah, he was a definite influence, as were Ramblin Jack Elliott, Dave Van Ronk and others of that ilk....but Bob D. sounded nothing like any of them.

In interviews, he's mentioned influences like Blind Willie McTell, but he sounds nothing like him at all. Of course, he also told an interviewer one time that his all-time favorite C&W song was Billy Ed Wheeler's "The Interstate Is Coming Through My Outhouse"...which, I think, was a put-on...but maybe not.

Every musician on Earth has obviously had influences, except the first cave man who pounded on a rock with a stick....and he probably saw an animal doing that. To me, you're an original if it's next to impossible to trace your roots by your artistry...and Dylan fits the bill to me, at least as far as his lyrics go. (and maybe his hair....)

[Tony Cartmill]

Question: Did anybody sound quite like Earth Wind and Fire before they came along so fresh in the mid-70's? The music and vocal arrangements seemed so WOW to me back then from these guys...

So I throw Maurice White in there with these guys...along with B. R. & M. Gibb.

[marvin]

I'd say that EW&F simply took Sly Stone's innovativeness to another level.

Marv

[pierson]

I'd say that EW&F simply took Sly Stone's innovativeness to another level.

Marv

Huh????????!!!!???

not for nuthin' but EW&F never got remotely close to "There's A Riot Goin On" as far as inovation's concerned-- it's kinda like in its own world... comparatively speaking, EW&F are as "groundbreaking" as the Eagles whereas Sly was almost as audacious as The Beatles...

and by the way, the first Bob Dylan album sounds a lot like Woodie Guthrie at times... it took him a few albums to come into his own as an "original" ... Guthrie's affectations are very noticeable on the early Dylan stuff...

[Lawyer fan]

I would rate Brian Wilson as the #1 pop composer of all; He did everything : compose, arrange, produce, play, perform ( at least in the early day ), sing amazing, etc... To me EC has qualities of McC and Brian. Lennon is singular onto himself, probably the greatest rocker that I ever saw live. Marc

[darlene]

You're right on, Lawyerfan! Indeed Eric has composed, arranged, produced, played, performed and sings amazingly well! We all know Eric is also a "rocker," and had the vision that made Raspberries (who have *always* "rocked") a reality, and Wally shared that vision with him like an identical twin. Wally is also a visionary. When the two met, it was MAGIC! (as we know!)

Not everyone realizes that Eric had an very complete orchestral background. MACCA did not. Eric has (and has *always* had, it seems) the ability to hear songs and musical pieces in his head, not only as a melody, but as an entire orchestra (with every instrument playing every part) or rock band (with every vocal and instrumental line playing and singing every part) all at once. And Raspberries' songs are SO much more intricate than those of ANY of the people you mentioned, even Beatles! As I recall hearing somewhere, prominent musicians on the Ringo tour couldn't PLAY some of Eric's songs ane complained about their intricacy!

This is how Mozart composed, and this is something that McCartney had neither the background nor the ability to do, as evidenced by the Beatles' use of George Martin. I don't know what Brian Wilson heard as he composed, nor Dylan, but ANYONE would be hard-pressed to be able to hear all that before they even write down a single note! Eric does, and that, in my head, makes him a "modern day Mozart." And Mozart was the quintessential musical genius for all ages.

I rest my case.

--Darlene