Don_Krider Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I was just comparing the well-known Billboard chart statistics vs. the lesser-known Cash Box and Record World chart statistics for Raspberries singles in the USA. Kind of interesting in that Raspberries charted much higher in Cash Box and Record World in some cases than they did in Billboard.Note: I have access to the Billboard and CashBox Hot 100 lists, but I can only find the Record World Top 40 singles lists, so I can't provide data on anything that Record World may have charted below its Top 40 singles.Thought the info might be of interest:"Don't Want To Say Goodbye" peaked at #86 in Billboard and #90 in Cash Box (but it was on the Cash Box chart for three weeks, a week longer than the Billboard chart)."Go All The Way" peaks were #5 in Billboard, #4 in Cash Box and #3 in Record World."I Wanna Be With You" peaks were #16 in Billboard, #10 in Cash Box and #7 in Record World."Let's Pretend" peaks were #35 in Billboard, #18 (for two weeks) in Cash Box and #14 in Record World."Tonight" peaks were #69 in Billboard and #37 (for two weeks) in Cash Box."I'm A Rocker" peaks were #94 in Billboard and #75 in Cash Box."Overnight Sensation (Hit Record)" peaks were #18 in Billboard, #24 in Cash Box and #26 in Record World.Only the first and last Raspberries chart hits charted lower in Cash Box than they did in Billboard.Raspberries have one Top 10 single in Billboard, but have two in both Cash Box and Record World.All three charts give the band three Top 20 singles (both have "Go All The Way" and "I Wanna Be With You", but "Overnight Sensation" is the third one in Billboard, while "Let's Pretend" is the third one in both Cash Box and Record World).Raspberries have four Top 40 singles in Billboard and Record World, but had five in Cash Box (the extra being "Tonight").Amazing that "Tonight" could reach #37 (for two weeks) in Cash Box but inched to only #69 in Billboard). Similar to that huge difference for "Let's Pretend" on the three charts (#14 in Record World and #18 (for two weeks) in Cash Box, but only #35 in Billboard).From a marketing standpoint, Raspberries can actually claim two Top 10 hits and five Top 40 singles via the Cashbox chart.Kind of makes me wonder about the accuracy of chart sales/airplay data since the record industry relies so much on Billboard rankings (rarely does anyone note the Cash Box or Record World (which folded in 1982) rankings in liner notes or band promotions by record labels).The case of The Choir's "It's Cold Outside" is another interesting one: peaked at #68 in Billboard, but hit #55 (for two weeks) in Cash Box and rose to #49 in Record World (according to a magazine article reprinted in Ken Sharp's book "Overnight Sensation: The Story Of The Raspberries")!Sources: My own collections, as well as Joe Whitburn's "Top Pop" books, and two wonderful online resources: the Cash Box Hot 100 Singles charts compiled by Randy Price at http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/randypny/cashbox/index.html and Mark Z's Record World Top 40 charts at http://www.geocities.com/muggy59/index.html .Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Mississippi Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Since you have access to all the records, I'm curious to know if two other 'Berry singles, "I'm A Rocker" and "Party's Over" cracked either of the lists top 100? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Krider Posted March 4, 2006 Author Share Posted March 4, 2006 Paul, "I'm A Rocker" is listed above. "Party's Over"/"Cruisin' Music" didn't chart."I'm A Rocker" was the "spotlight dance" in 1973 on "American Bandstand" (the band wasn't on the episode, but Dick Clark introduced the dance segment and said something like "these guys have been here a few times" and introduced the song)."Party's Over" did get played on the Rate-A-Record segment of that series when it came out. Looked like the "American Bandstand Dancers" enjoyed moving to it, but the two people who rated it gave it a "60" score. Myself, I love that song.Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill C Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Too bad I wanna be with you didn't get top ten status in billboard. It seems that that is the cut-off for oldies stations to configure their playlist. Go all the way is played but you rarely hear anything else by the 'berries unless requested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Mississippi Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I remember hearing Party's Over on the radio one time. I'm not sure but maybe it got less airplay due to the "s" word. I'd have to assume that the Rate-a-record bleeped out the word on tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Don, that's awesome research. Gracias. Now, when you have another chunk of time to dig some more, how about EC's first few solo hits on all three charts? :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Krider Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 I did find the rest of the Record World Hot 100 information, so I can also note that "Don't Want To Say Goodbye" reached #89 on that chart and "Tonight" peaked at #43 in Record World.Wally's band Fotomaker's singles performance on the three charts in 1978:"Where Have You Been All My Life?" - peaked at #81 in Billboard, #88 in Cash Box and #84 in Record World."Miles Away" - #63 in Billboard, #70 in Cash Box and #85 in Record World.And for you Euclid Beach Band (produced by Eric Carmen) fans: the band hit two of the national charts with different singles --- peaking at #82 in Record World in 1978 with "There's No Surf In Cleveland" and at #81 in Billboard in 1979 with the Eric-penned "I Need You." In case anyone isn't aware of it, both songs appeared on the 1979 LP "Euclid Beach Band" that was reissed a few years back on CD in Japan (and Eric plays on the album, too).A trivia bonus --- Euclid Beach Band's Pete Hewlett was most recently in the Hewlett-Anderson Band: http://www.hewlettanderson.com/bios.htm#Pete ; pretty impressive bio.LC, I'm compiling the EC singles data (now that I have all three Hot 100 charts) and it will appear here next...Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Krider Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 The Top 100 Pop Singles charts appearances for Eric Carmen's singles from Billboard, Cash Box (which folded in 1996) and Record World (which folded in 1982) - PLEASE NOTE: the "year" is the year it *peaked* on the charts, not the single's release year (for instance, "Hungry Eyes" was actually released as a single in 1987, but peaked in 1988): "All By Myself" (1976, Arista) - peaked at #2 (for three weeks) in Billboard, #1 in Cash Box and #1 in Record World. (Peaked at #6 in Billboard's Adult Contemporary (AC) chart.)"Never Gonna Fall In Love Again" (1976, Arista) - peaked at #11 in Billboard, #9 in both Cash Box and Record World. (Peaked at #1 in Billboard's AC chart on June 19, 1976.)"Sunrise" (1976, Arista) - peaked at #34 in Billboard, #38 (for two weeks) in Cash Box and #28 in Record World."She Did It" (1977, Arista) - peaked at #23 in Billboard, #15 in Cash Box and #27 in Record World."Boats Against The Current" (1978, Arista) - peaked at #88 in Billboard, #92 in Cash Box and didn't chart in Record World. For trivia buffs: hit the Billboard chart for three weeks beginning Dec. 24, 1977. Hit the Cash Box chart for five weeks beginning Jan. 14, 1978 (debuted in Cash Box *after* after the song had exited the Billboard chart!)."Change Of Heart" (1978, Arista) - peaked at #19 in both Billboard and Cash Box, #20 in Record World."Baby, I Need Your Lovin'" (1979, Arista) - peaked at #62 in Billboard, #60 in Cash Box and #63 in Record World."It Hurts Too Much" (1980, Arista) - Hit the Billboard Hot 100 as "the highest debut of the week" on July 12, 1980, at #75. Peaked at #75 for two weeks in Billboard (then dropped off the chart). #83 (for two weeks) in Cash Box and #71 in Record World."I Wanna Hear It From Your Lips" (1985, Geffen) -peaked at #35 in Billboard and #37 (for two weeks) in Cash Box. *Record World ceased publication in 1982*. Reached #10 on Billboard's AC Chart."I'm Through With Love" (1985, Geffen) - peaked at #87 in Billboard and #79 (for two weeks) in Cash Box. Reached #16 on Billboard's AC Chart."Hungry Eyes" (1988, RCA) - peaked at #4 in Billboard and #3 (for two weeks) in Cash Box. Reached #2 on Billboard's AC Chart."Make Me Lose Control" (1988, Arista) - peaked at #3 in Billboard and #4 in Cash Box. First charted in Billboard on May 21, 1988. Reached (drum roll please!) #1 for three straight weeks on Billboard's AC chart (beginning July 16, 1988)."Reason To Try" (1988, Arista) - Eric's last Top Pop Singles chart entry in Billboard peaked at #87. Didn't chart in Cash Box. Third single from the gold-selling "One Moment In Time" NBC-TV 1988 Olympics soundtrack album. Trivia buffs note: Backup vocals by Mark Hudson of The Hudson Brothers.Odds and ends:"The Rock Stops Here" (1986, Cool Records) - not a U. S. national hit, but it did go to #4 on WMMS-FM in Cleveland!"As Long As We Got Each Other" (1988, RCA) - Eric's second and last RCA hit, a duet with Louise Mandrell, didn't make the pop charts but reached #51 on Billboard's Top Country chart, making Eric the only Raspberries' member with a country chart hit. Trivia buffs: Mandrell's cover of "Maybe My Baby" made Billboard's Country Top 10 and her cover of "I Wanna Hear It From Your Lips" made Billboard's Country Top 40.For the trivia buffs: the Peter Cetera (the one-time lead singer of Chicago) and Crystal Bernard (she was "Helen" for seven on NBC-TV's "Wings" series) single cover of Eric's "(I Wanna Take) Forever Tonight" peaked at #86 in 1995 on the Billboard Top Pop Singles chart.Look for a seperate post on Mike Reno and Ann Wilson's recording of Eric's "Almost Paradise"...Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip from st.paul mn Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Mr. Krider, this is a very informative piece of material that you have researched. In comparison, in the sense that each band had four lp's, where would the Box Tops stand in the same analysis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Carmen Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I couldn't even hum you one bar of "Reason To Try." I was on tour with "Dirty Dancing" and got a call one day from Don Ienner who said they were putting out an Olympics album and Aris ta wanted me to sing a song called "Reason To Try." I was completely burned out from the grueling tour schedule but had two days off in Houston coming up. Instead of going to Houston, I finished playing a show, got on a plane and flew to LA where the recording session for "Reason To Try" was already in progress with Michael Lloyd at the helm. I vaguely remember walking in and saying "hi" to the band (Matt Sorum, future Guns & Roses and Velvet Revolver was playing drums.) The next day I went to see Dr Feder, "throat doctor to the stars," who told me my throat looked like raw hamburger and gave me a huge shot of cortisone in my hip. I then proceeded to Michael Lloyd's house, sang the vocal, got back on a plane and flew to the next stop on the tour. If you held a gun to my head, I could not remember one line of that song to sing for you. I can also tell you that, although the album went gold, I never received one penny of royalties for it. Where they went, who knows? e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip from st.paul mn Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 That is what is so pleasing about the 30+ years of commercial success with All By Myself. You went through complete hell only to be eventually vindicated. Kind of like Wilson's "Fire" recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmichel Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I just googled ERIC CARMEN, REASON TO TRY and the lyrics came right up...Man...It must be cool to be able to google yourself and find music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Carmen Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 It comes in handy when I can't remember what I wrote. e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Speaking of remembering what you wrote, you have a lot of titles in your catalog that are in foreign languages. How tough is that to come up with the right lyrics? Kirk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Krider Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Eric, that's a fascinating "Reason To Try" memory.I don't know if it helps, but I just did a search online for "missing royalties" and found several places that deal with such things, but had an actual hit for your name at http://sonybmg.com/missingroyalties/ --- just type in "Eric Carmen" (without the quotation marks) in the site's search engine and it comes up with two reference numbers that might lead you to some missing royalties.The BBC in England had an interesting article about some famous British composers whose royalties are unpaid: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/1796462.stm .Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Krider Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Skip, interesting question on The Box Tops - might take me a while to research that one (more hits, longer period of time), but I'll see what I can do when I have some more spare time down the road.Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip from st.paul mn Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Thanks Don, your research on this topic will be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LobsterLvr Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Don...What a great set of facts and figures. A truly amazing thread. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-o Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I remember seeing the "Party's Over" Rate-A-Record segment on American bandstand. I think it was on sometime in January,1975. Just saw the Berries at a live gig in St.Pete, Fl just before Christmas,then the American Bandstand show, then saw the Berries live again in February at the same place in St.Pete. Kind of like a ******** wasn't it?Steve-O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Krider Posted March 12, 2006 Author Share Posted March 12, 2006 Dave,Thanks. Glad you liked the research.Here's some interesting Year-End charts (remember that in the 1970s 300 to 400 singles were released every week, meaning just charting on the weekly charts was a major achievement; making the Year-End Top 100 is a major accomplishment):1972 --- Cash Box Top 100 Best Selling Singles http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/randypny2/cashbox/1972YESP.html --- Raspberries with "Go All The Way" at #39.1972, Billboard Year-End Top 100 Singles --- http://longboredsurfer.com/charts.php?year=1972 : Raspberries "Go All The Way" at #33.1973, Cash Box Year-End Top 100 Singles --- http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/randypny2/cashbox/1973YESP.html : Raspberries hit twice: "Let's Pretend" sits at #71 and "I Wanna Be With You" hit #100. (NOTE: Neither song made Billboard's Year-End list in 1973.)1976, Billboard Year-End Top 100 Singles --- http://longboredsurfer.com/charts.php?year=1976 : Eric Carmen with "All By Myself" at #40.1976, Cash Box Year-End Top 100 Singles --- http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/randypny2/cashbox/1976YESP.html : Eric Carmen with "All By Myself" at #41.1988, Billboard Year-End Top 100 Singles --- http://longboredsurfer.com/charts.php?year=1988 --- Eric Carmen hits twice: "Hungry Eyes" at #25 and "Make Me Lose Control" at #38.1988, Cash Box Year-End Top 50 Singles (for some reason Cash Box only counted the Top 50 in 1988) --- http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/randypny2/cashbox/1988YESP.html : Eric Carmen hits twice: "Hungry Eyes" at #30 and "Make Me Lose Control" at #43.Just for fun, go through the lists and see what artists/songs ranked below Raspberries and Eric on the lists --- pretty interesting in some cases.Don aka "the research guy"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Krider Posted April 16, 2006 Author Share Posted April 16, 2006 Skip from St. Paul MN wrote: ""Mr. Krider, this is a very informative piece of material that you have researched. In comparison, in the sense that each band had four lp's, where would the Box Tops stand in the same analysis?"Skip, I completed that research for you and added it to a Box Tops review I wrote six years ago at: http://www.epinions.com/musc-review-53AD-3CB3ACE-38D49442-prod5 Additional data I didn't have previously for this Raspberries-thread: Raspberries "Don't Want To Say Goodbye" hit #89 in Record World (meaning it did hit all three charts; Raspberries' chart data is the first post in this thread).Something interesting on the charts (interesting considering the EC-Oliver connection): Oliver charted with a single called "I Can Remember" in 1970, which peaked at #94 in Record World (source: http://www.geocities.com/muggy59/100o.html ). Different song released two years before the Raspberries album track of the same name.In other news: my sister gave birth to her first child, a daughter, on Tuesday, April 11 --- Sydney Elizabeth Cleveland (Cleveland being my sister's last name by marriage, but funny considering my love of the city of Cleveland's bands). Six pounds, 15 ounces, and 19-inches in length --- http://www.growingfamily.com/webnursery/...&height=536 The baby's first name is taken from my sister's favorite city in Australia.Uncle Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Davie Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 This great stuff Don. I hope I run into you at Abbey Road On The River. I'd love to hear more of this over a beer after one of my sets.;^)I think it's amazing that Cash Box & Record World were kinder to the overwhemling majority of The Raspberries singles, while the 'almighty industry standard' of Billboard was not.I found the same true when researching Hollies & Badfinger singles...for instance 'Long Cool Woman' was #1 in most polls, while Billboard had it peak at #2. So when I tell people Long Cool was #1, I'm not lying. But it's like saying "ABC News is America's Most Watched Network News" (and in fine print at the bottom) "according to AC Nielson ratings, May 2005, combined cume of all newcasts, for Adults 18+". Holy crap - there's 'spin' to everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Krider Posted April 17, 2006 Author Share Posted April 17, 2006 Paul, I'll be the guy yelling for "Go All The Way" from the audience!I am fascinated by the differences in the three charts.I've been gathering data on the Cash Box album charts of late (our library here being a great source) and Raspberries and Eric Carmen albums charted much higher in Cash Box in most cases than they did in Billboard. Makes you wonder "why?"Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Carmen Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 I can tell you why, Don. When I was signed to Arista it became very clear that Arista, located in New York, as well as well as Jimmy and Don Ienner, had much more "control" of the east coast publications, Cash Box and Record World. Billboard is a west coast publication and the Arista promotiuon staff in LA was not as formidable as their east coast counterparts. That's why "December 1963" kept "All By Myself" out of the number one slot at Billboard. ec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvin Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 I still have clippings of the Montreal music charts from those years ago, and "ABM" was #1 in our city for quite a few weeks. It was eventually unseated by, I believe, either Leo Sayer's "When I Need You" or Lou Rawls' "You'll Never Find."Marv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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