Chic, Grandmaster Flash, Joe Tex or Raspberries?

[darlene]

If Joe had a few hits before that song, then "Oh Dear!", what the heck happened to his career?

I liked Jon Sebastian and the Lovin Spoonful too. But he was more "folksy" for sure. John Lennon was supposedly an admirer of Sebastian and may have been influenced by him in some way. Sebastian and the L/S certainly have a place in pop culture, but they weren't "rockers." I just think it's an outrage that the "Rock" HOF inductee list is so convoluted and frankly, ridiculous. It's probably more of a rock honor NOT to be inducted.

There were a number of actors/comedians at Juilliard who were thrown out/didn't make the cut. Every one of *them* became big stars. As they all became famous, one by one, Juilliard undergrads who made the cut began fearing they *wouldn't* succeed. Sometimes the "experts" don't know what they're doing.

--Darlene

[gordharris]

Guys, do you really want to know what "Rock N Roll" means to me?

I'm sure you do.

Rock n Roll, to me means spiritual chant from the heart in a melodic way.

With different life long rhymes put into music related to your living soul.

Being able to connect to another spiritual body with acceptance of another, with dance and movement.

[Bob Allen]

Cosmic.

[pierson]

What is Rock and Roll? I don’t think that question can be easily answered and separated by specific artists. Is Percy Sledge any less rock and roll than Chuck Berry? One of my university courses was the “Evolution of Popular Music.†The professor made the claim that Rock's origins can’t be simply attributed to what we’ve assumed, i.e. 1950’s artists such as Fats Domino, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, and Elvis. He said that you’ve got to start at least a decade earlier, and he pointed to Hank Williams and songs like “Hey Good Lookin’†and “Jambalaya.†Rock and roll is not an easy basket to fill and I think we’ve got to accept the fact that it includes many different styles and tastes.

Marv

Yes... BUT that shouldn't SLOW anyone down for a split second when they ponder the idea of Percy Sledge... Chuck Berry IS rock & roll... Percy is an r&b/pop sidebar... he's as marginal as they get....

Chuck Berry is basically the center of rock & roll... all the antecedents are just that: Antecedents and they do matter... but things always should be kept in perspective & Eric is right (although I would argue Procol Harum are on equal footing with The Lovin' Spoonful in my book).

Kiss, Alice Cooper, Small Faces, New York Dolls all deserve induction before the lighter singer-songwriters and disco artists, as well as marginal R&B/pop singers with one song that never stops playing on the radio... P. Sludge indeed

[marvin]

Let me say up front that I'm not supporting Percy Sledge's induction. On the contrary, I'm quite indifferent on the subject.

Pat I can't argue with your always-expert analysis, but I think that we have to remember that the voting committee, whoever they are, are faced with the same issues that are brought up here. If artists like Grandmaster Flash are being nominated and the Small Faces are not, I'd start questioning the average age of the voting committee. I also think that many of the artists who get elected do so because of the impact they have made on U.S. soil. Having said that, Grandmaster Flash made a huge impact. With all due respect, Percy might have only put out one big song, but that one song is probably known by more people than anything put together collectively by Kiss, Alice, the Dolls and Small Faces.

Marv

[JohnO]

At the risk of bringing up Mr. Sledge one more time.....While I do not for a second think he belongs in the R&R (or any other) HOF, people marginalizing him as just a one-hit wonder is equivalent to hard core R&B/Soul fans wondering why we're debating about Raspberries....because odds are, all they know about them is "Go All The Way", and possibly some of Eric's solo singles (and, even then, they may not be aware that Eric was in the band!)....because, let's face it, that's their one song that's played on the oldies and classic rock stations....much like "When A Man Loves A Woman".

Now, whether PS is really rock & roll.....that's another issue. Whether we like it or not, the decision was made long ago to consider R&B/soul acts in the R&R HOF criteria.

P.S. Agree with Pierson about Kiss, Alice C, Small Faces and Dolls...

[raspberrywine]

Right On!, The RRHOF needs to have a special Percy Sledge exibit. Maybe an entire room.

[marvin]

Why stop at a room? How about an entire floor?

Marv

[raspberrywine]

Why not just change the name of the place to "The Percy Sledge Hall of Fame, and others."

[marvin]

Now THAT's an idea that just might be sell-able to the geniuses on the Board of the R&RHoF.

Marv

[darlene]

The age-old question: "What *really* constitutes

X?" Chris Botti, the renowned jazz trumpet virtuoso of String's band, doesn't think much of labels. He points out that smooth jazz encompasses Sting, Sade Adu, Kenny G and even Celine Dion. Even Moby, if heard on a smooth jazz station, would fit right in.

"Lines have become blurred. Forty years ago, when Miles Davis' 'Kind of Blue' was released, it was the ultimate smooth jazz album. It had a goal--chill the listener out, but it was unbelievably artistic. In the '70s and '80s they called this music commercial jazz. But all of those guys were great jazz musicians. So call me smooth jazz, call me whatever. I don't care. As long as people are coming to the shows, that's all that matters."

Miranda Lambert isn't my idea of country, either, especially when compared to Faith Hill. Again, Faith Hill's brand of country is different from Gretchen Wilson's for sure. Then there's rockabilly, etc. etc et-nauseating-cetera. However, Miranda's aim is to bring younger people into country music.

What X is is highly subjective. There are broad guidelines, but infinite varieties. But it's so much fun to debate. As Trindy always quotes, "All I know is what I can feel." And that's probably so true of all of us. Once again, Eric and Raspberries speak a universal truth.

--Darlene

[darlene]

The age-old question: "What *really* constitutes X?

Chris Botti, the renowned jazz trumpet virtuoso of String's band, doesn't think much of labels. He points out that smooth jazz encompasses Sting, Sade Adu, Kenny G and even Celine Dion. Even Moby, if heard on a smooth jazz station, would fit right in.

"Lines have become blurred. Forty years ago, when Miles Davis' 'Kind of Blue' was released, it was the ultimate smooth jazz album. It had a goal--chill the listener out, but it was unbelievably artistic. In the '70s and '80s they called this music commercial jazz. But all of those guys were great jazz musicians. So call me smooth jazz, call me whatever. I don't care. As long as people are coming to the shows, that's all that matters."

Miranda Lambert isn't my idea of country, either, especially when compared to Faith Hill. Again, Faith Hill's brand of country is different from Gretchen Wilson's for sure. Then there's rockabilly, etc. etc et-countless-cetera. However, Miranda's aim is to bring younger people into country music. I loved Bob James and Chick Corea. They were different, but they were both jazz.

What X is is highly subjective. There are broad guidelines, but infinite varieties. But it's so much fun to debate. As Trindy always quotes, "All I know is what I can feel." And that's probably so true of all of us. Once again, Eric and Raspberries speak a universal truth.

--Darlene

[LC]

...people marginalizing [Percy Sledge] as just a one-hit wonder is equivalent to hard core R&B/Soul fans wondering why we're debating about Raspberries....because odds are, all they know about them is "Go All The Way", and possibly some of Eric's solo singles (and, even then, they may not be aware that Eric was in the band!)....because, let's face it, that's their one song that's played on the oldies and classic rock stations....much like "When A Man Loves A Woman".

JohnO, I agree with most of what you've posted, except for this bit: I'd wager that "I Wanna Be With You" was as widely heard upon its release as "Go All the Way." I was 12 or 13 at the time, and I remember it playing nonstop.... Today, I still hear it a lot on the same classic rock stations that play "GATW."

I don't know why I'm making that point, except maybe to boost Raspberries above the Sludge-man, and to argue that they're not a one-hit wonder.... Sledge, though, is. In fact, for every 10 people that know "When a Man Loves a Woman," I'd bet half couldn't name the original artist. Their first guess might be "Michael Bolton."

Besides, regardless of how many hits he had, Sledge is in the Hall, I believe, only because the voters were trying to be cool: They were trying to be hip and show they had soul. And they maybe went for a bit of "shock value" (well, as much "shock" as you can get with such a thing as HOF voting). Plus, they knew they'd get tons of press, good or bad, if they had a curveball. And you know what they say: Bad press is better than no press.

[JohnO]

LC - I'm really, really getting sick of the Percy S. posts, so this is my last one, OK?

The Billboard chart hits of the 2 artistes and their highest positions:

Percy S. - When A Man Loves A Woman - #1;

Warm & Tender Love - #17;

It Tears Me Up - #20; and

Take Time To Know Her - #11

Raspberries - GATW - #4;

IWBWY - #16;

Let's Pretend - #35; and

Tonight - #69

Draw your own conclusions.....

The point I was trying to make above is that, among PRIMARILY SOUL/R&B fans, Rasberries are most likely known for GATW.....just as PS is known PRIMARILY among R&R fans for WAMLAW.

Frankly, I love Raspberries and don't really care one way or another about Sledge....but, although he does NOT (REPEAT: NOT!!!!) belong in the R&R HOF, calling him a one hit wonder is, IMHO, understating his recording accomplishments.

End of Percy Sledge rants for me!!!!!

[Kirk]

John-o, I think you have to throw in "Overnight Sensation" to be fair (Hit #18 on the charts), but I get your point. By the way, I've prepared a little speech for you over on the 'Girls in D.C.' thread. Kirk.

[raspberrywine]

John O seems to have some lingering issues with Percy Sledge. You must let it go now John O, heal and put Percy's career behind you. You'll be happier for it. All I know is I really doubt Percy Sledge fans are traveling all over the country to his gigs at great expense whenever they occur. Hmmm, much activity over at the Percy Sledge Message Board or is it quieter than a mausoleum? Is Percy Sledge grandmaster in his hometown holiday parade this year? VH-1?, Springsteen calling out ole Percy's name at gigs,? Village Voice reviewed him recently? Draw your own conclusions: The spirit of rock n roll still surrounds the Raspberries.

[marvin]

Ok one more PS item, this from the "RRHoF" website

If Percy Sledge had only recorded “When a Man Loves a Woman,†one of the greatest of all soul songs, he would have earned his place in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. No less an authority than Jerry Wexler has called it “a transcendent moment….a holy love hymn.†Released on Atlantic in 1966, “When a Man Loves a Woman†topped the R&B and pop charts for multiple weeks and raised the bar for soul balladeering for all time. Yet Sledge’s career didn’t end with that momentous first single. Over the years he racked up a dozen hits at Atlantic, including “Warm and Tender Love,†“It Tears Me Up,†“Out of Left Field†and “Take Time to Know Her.â€

“When a Man Loves a Woman†was Sledge’s first single, cut by producers Quin Ivy and Marlin Greene at their modest studio in Sheffield, Alabama. Sledge had carried the song’s melody with him for a long time. “I hummed it all my life, even when I was picking and chopping cotton in the fields,†he recalls.

He improvised words to go with his melody one night while performing at a frat party at the University of Mississippi, and Ivy, who was then a college student, told him, “If you ever think about cutting a record, come on by, because I love that melody.â€

In 1989, Sledge received the Rhythm & Blues Foundation’s first Career Achievement Award. Even though his post-Atlantic recordings have been infrequent, Sledge has remained an in-demand performer, averaging about a hundred dates a year in the U.S. and Europe.

Marv

[Gene]

The worst thing about this thread... I keep logging on and seeing, in big letters, Chic, Grandmaster Flash....

[pierson]

fyi: i didn't label him Percy a one-hit wonder...

i tried to put him in the context of "rock & roll" which is "marginal"... as an R&B artist he deserves all the praise & notoriety & i bet his catalog is strong enough to merit it...

Percy is an r&b/pop sidebar... he's as marginal as they get....

.... [an] R&B/pop singer with one song that never stops playing on the radio... P. Sludge indeed [/QB]

[mamacote]

....."fool house".....ya gotta love that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[darlene]

Raspberries doesn't need induction into the Rock Hall--it's a dubious honor at best, considering some of the past inductees. Raspberries will, however, make the music world sit up and take notice. And the Rock Hall will decide it needs them. Then we can laugh while we watch the selectors there suddenly court Raspberries' induction.

--Darlene

[LC]

JohnO, I getcha. No more Sledge comments from me, either.

In fact, it's a hopelessly circular argument (who belongs in the Hall, and who doesn't). Baseball fans have the same type of circular arguments when it comes to inductees like Bill Mazeroski and future inductees like Mark McGwire and should-be inductees like Ron Santo. Nobody wins such arguments... but they can be fun, right?

Darlene, I like what you wrote above.... That's a good last word for this thread, IMHO!

[JohnO]

Raspberrywine - "John O seems to have some lingering issues with Percy Sledge."

JO (in earlier post) - "Frankly, I ....don't really care one way or another about Sledge"

Exactly what part of that post DON'T you understand??? Just wondering.......

[JohnO]

"John-o, I think you have to throw in "Overnight Sensation" to be fair (Hit #18 on the charts)"

Kirk - You are correct, my oversight.....so it becomes - Raspberries - # 4, 16, 18 & 35,

Sledge - #1, 11, 17, 20, with several lesser hits by both artistes tossed in...

[JohnO]

At the risk of stirring more soul/R&B sh*t up.....just wondering why nobody's b*tched about Solomon Burke, who, I don't believe, ever had a mainstream hit in the Billboard charts past #35 or so (and only had 2-3 of those, tops)...and is also in the R&R HOF.....(NOTE: I'm guessing nobody's complained primarily because most people can't even name any of his songs....even though he's one of the all-time great singers).