In Hindsight: Raspberries (1972)

[LC]

So I posted those Eric solo-album "Hindsight" threads a few weeks ago, but I actually wrote them way after doing similar threads for the Raspberries albums. In fact, to show you how long ago I started writing this, here's my original lead paragraph:

"I love reading about baseball, bedbugs, Weiner pix, UFOs, and, yes, even circumcision. (Hi Wendy!) But it's nice to see 'berries and EC threads, too, right?"

Pretty funny, don't you think? Yes, we actually had hot threads going at the time about all of those subjects. (The circumcision one was not to be missed.) But as I was saying, it's nice to revisit the classics, especially because... well, time is marching on, and how knows how long into our lives we'll pull out "Go All the Way" and crank it on the ol' stereo?

Anyway, I'll pick up where I left off, though I've gone through it all, flip-flopped a couple songs, and added letter grades, as Craig Benfer got me doing on the Eric "Hindsight" threads.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I was remembering a post I did on the "Boats Against The Current" blog where I ranked the songs on that album from favorite to least favorite (not easy!). So I thought it would entertaining to take the same approach with the 'berries original albums. (Somebody in the past may have done this exercise here, but it's worth some "revisionist history" now that we're, you know, a little older.)

Here's how I personally rank the songs on Raspberries' first album, starting with my top-level, A+, prime-cut, choice and ending with my "least favorite":

1. Go All the Way: A+

GATW has to be tops here, just because it made such an instant (and lasting) impact. It was such an immediate song; it gave teenage fellas of the early 1970s hope that, you know, you'd meet "that girl" in the song. :-) Plus, of course, it introduced so many of us to the hot new band from Cleveland — the next Beatles.

2. I Can Remember: A+

PaulMaul, I loved your thread about this song and meant to respond. I was going to say, basically, that I respectfully disagree — that to edit this song would be (to me) the same as hacking the tag off of "Hey Jude." I think the estimable Cartmill took your position, too. But to me, the "surprising musical changes" (per Raspberries' Best liner notes) are what make it special. The entire work hangs together, and each "movement" is just important as the others, IMHO. If "Overnight Sensation" is the pop symphony that Springsteen called it, "I Can Remember" is a masterwork. Hearing it even now has me recalling those nights in my senior high school year when I'd sit in my dark room with big, bulky headphones on and listen to "I Can Remember" several times in a row, just soaking it in. What an experience.... (At 8 minutes per playing, though, who has time for that anymore? Well, make time! It's therapeutic!)

3. Waiting: A

Really, who nails melancholy better than Eric Carmen? To me, "Waiting" is kind of a "Yesterday"-type song, except it's been performed, played, and covered a few billion times less. But it's got that same feel. Beautiful.

4. Don't Wanna Say Goodbye: A

It's still a kick to hear that harmonizing by Eric Carmen and Wally Bryson on this power ballad. An undiscovered classic that drips with heartache. Love it. Was it too slow to be a big hit? Bad timing? Too long? Too new? Wrong order (coming before "GATW" as a single)? Don't know, but its top chart position (86, Billboard; 90, Cashbox) doesn't match its quality.

5. I Saw the Light: A

Such a fluid, sweet, symmetrical melody. I still think of "I Saw the Light" as a criminally underrated love song. I mean, I have it at No. 5, and it' an A+ song, to me. I know it was early in their career, but I like everything about the performance and production.... the lead vocal; that little "knock-knock" within the line "there's a knock on the door"; the piano rolls; Wally's trademark riffs in the middle; the harmony vocals; Eric's sudden rise at the tag ("Woo-hooo-hooo!").... It's all good. And I always loved the lyrics: "Good friends, bookends, solitaire for two/'Til she was leaving, I never really knew..."

6. Come Around and See Me: B+

Wal-ly! Wal-ly! I always loved the guitars in this. Listening to it again, I can understand why Capitol was drawn to the song — clever, loose, and well played.

7. Rock'n'Roll Mama: B

With all of the Eric ballads on this album, Dave's songs were hugely important in the album's pacing. "Rock'n'Roll Mama" has those great guitars all the way through (especially during the closing) and some Eric piano-pounding and some good screams and some of Jim's best drum work.

8. Get It Movin': B-

Don't let its 8th slot fool you; I love this one. In fact, I'd put it on a par with "Rock'n'Roll Mama": a great rockin' number with some attitude.

9. With You in My Life: C

I admit I've skipped over this one more than any other song on an overall great album. I wonder if it's the opening horns that cause me to hit "Skip" or "Repeat." Yet once I get past the opening, I tend to hear the charm here. It's not a beefy song, or a sweet ballad; it seems as if Wally simply created his own version of "When I'm 64." Of course, that can be a dangerous area to tread, and ultimately I prefer Wally's more Lennonesque side (see Starting Over).

[Kirk]

LC, nice piece, as usual. We're pretty close...

Go All The Way

Don't Want To Say Goodbye

I Can Remember

I Saw The Light

Waiting

Come Around And See Me

Rock 'N' Roll Mama

Get It Movin'

With You In My Life

My rankings based on the Sunset Strip versions would have DWTSG and ICR flip-flopped. DWTSG was as good or better than the original, but ICR was so exceptional live I have no choice but to move it into 2nd place. l'd love to hear this entire album re-recorded or re-mastered.

[Brian Michael Page]

This would be tough for me to rank, as this album has nine great songs.

1. Go All the Way

2. Get It Moving (My favorite Dave Smalley tune)

3. Come Around and See Me (My second favorite Wally Bryson tune, second only to "Last Dance")

4. I Saw the Light

5. Rock and Roll Mama

6. Don't Want to Say Goodbye

7. I Can Remember

8. Waiting (The fact that Eric Carmen wrote this when he was 12 and made it sound so good on record 10 years later speaks volumes!)

9. With You in My Life

BMP

[James]

1. I Can Remember A+

2. Waiting A+

3. Don´t Wanna Say Goodbye A

4. I Saw The Light A

5. With You In My Life A

6. Come Around and See Me A-

7. Go All The Way B+

..I don´t like the other 2

[James]

LC said:

PaulMaul, I loved your thread about this song and meant to respond. I was going to say, basically, that I respectfully disagree — that to edit this song would be (to me) the same as hacking the tag off of "Hey Jude." I think the estimable Cartmill took your position, too. But to me, the "surprising musical changes" (per Raspberries' Best liner notes) are what make it special. The entire work hangs together, and each "movement" is just important as the others, IMHO. If "Overnight Sensation" is the pop symphony that Springsteen called it, "I Can Remember" is a masterwork. Hearing it even now has me recalling those nights in my senior high school year when I'd sit in my dark room with big, bulky headphones on and listen to "I Can Remember" several times in a row, just soaking it in. What an experience.... (At 8 minutes per playing, though, who has time for that anymore? Well, make time! It's therapeutic!)

I agree with this post 100%.

RE: "With You In My Life" - I didn't like it 35 years ago. Now I love the song. The melody is perfect. The production/arrangement is exquisite. It's fun. And the song has a little daffyness that works!...I (today) think it's a perfect little pop song, WAY underrated by us.

James

[LC]

Thank you James.

And where are Cartmill and PaulMaul to chime in? I'm interested in seeing where and what you boys rank "I Can Remember."

I'm running a little behind on the other Raspberries' albums but have a couple hours of driving today so I will take a refresher course. (Almost done....)

[PaulMaul]

I listened to the album in its entirety this morning. I'll give my rankings, and then I have some general comments which are sure to be controversial

1. Waiting -- this really is one of my favorite Eric songs, beautiful melody, beautiful vocal performance....an underappreciated gem!

2. Go All the Way

3. I Saw the Light -- the first album is not my favorite of the 'berries works, but my favorite aspect of it is the prominence of Eric/Wally vocal interplay.

4. I Can Remember -- I've said enough about this one!

5. Don't Want to Say Goodbye -- I know it's a fan favorite, and I like it OK, but it just seems a bit plodding at times -- more great Eric/Wally harmonies though

6. Come Around and See Me -- Not in love with the song, but I do love Wally's voice

7, 8, 9 I really don't like any of the other three all that much. Which leads me to my main point:

To me the biggest hindrance to greater Raspberries success was the band's lack of a well-defined identity. It seems like the band tried to pattern itself after the Beatles with the rotating songwriters concept. But the problem is, Wally and Dave are just not standouts in that area IMHO. For the Fab 4, John and Paul are 1A and 1B, and George (once he found himself anyway) is a close 2. On the other hand, I see Eric as 1 and Dave and Wally as several orders of magnitude below that. As a result, the inclusion of so many non-Eric songs really dilutes the albums. The juxtaposition of Rock n Roll Mama and Waiting is very stark and to me not pleasant.

I am a huge fan of Wally's voice and guitar prowess. I feel he's really a great talent. I just don't think he's a great songwriter. I do like "Might as Well", but that's about it.

It's clear to me that if a 10-song album had been 8 or 9 Eric songs and one or two others, the band's identity would have been clearer and might have caught on better with the public.

Yet I know many longtime fans enjoy the non-Eric songs, and I accept that. I just wonder what might have been if things had been handled differently.

[James]

I mostly agree Paul. Though I like most all Wally songs. I only really like 2 Dave songs ("Makin It Easy" and "Should I Wait"...both these songs are great and are up there with Eric Carmen written tunes, IMHO).

But again I agree with your point. While it seems many give Eric a hard time for being a strong "boss" within the group, it's my opinion that he allowed inferior songs from other band members to replace songs of his....BECAUSE Eric is a very decent guy and always had the other members' interests at heart.

He has mentioned before that he wrote songs with Wally in mind..wrote songs with the group (not him) in mind.

Without Eric Carmen there is no Raspberries.

I'd say (it's my sense) re: The Raspberries experience, that within the band, Eric Carmen was a GIVER, not a taker.

James

[Tony Cartmill]

I think Wally and Dave would have a different slant on that one, Gringo James.

[Tony Cartmill]

I don't listen to the old "tinny" 1st album much anymore...but I need to.

[marvin]

Go All The Way

Don't Want To Say Goodbye

Come Around And See Me

With You In My Life

I Saw The Light

Waiting

Rock 'N' Roll Mama

Get It Movin'

I Can Remember

[PaulMaul]

marvin said:

Go All The Way

Don't Want To Say Goodbye

Come Around And See Me

With You In My Life

I Saw The Light

Waiting

Rock 'N' Roll Mama

Get It Movin'

I Can Remember

Marvin,

Can you expand upon your take on "I Can Remember?" I'm interested.

[Kirk]

PaulMaul said:

Marvin,

Can you expand upon your take on "I Can Remember?" I'm interested.

Marvin doesn't like songs with the word 'Remember' in the title

[marvin]

PaulMaul said:

Can you expand upon your take on "I Can Remember?" I'm interested.

Certainly. Now I know that this is a song that many people adore, including the band members, but it's never quite worked for me. I do admire how adventurous an undertaking this song was for a young band, however, while I like the ballad section of the song, the uptempo section doesn't fit for me. The two sections have always felt like two songs spliced together, unnaturally.

Having said all this, over the years I've come to appreciate the song a lot more. Much of this is through having heard the song in the reunion concerts multiple times, watching the band attack those musical changes with an incredible verve, and talking to Wally about the intricate guitar work, etc. While it's still not my favourite song on the album, I do have a better understanding of it. I should probably move it up a notch or two on my list.

[LC]

I went back to read all of PaulMaul's original post about "I Can Remember," and was surprised to find out that contrary to what I wrote here, I actually did write a response on that thread. It turns out to be very similar to what I wrote here about "ICR," not surprisingly. But I will reiterate that you made a compelling argument, PaulMaul, for a shorter version of the song. I would actually enjoy hearing such an animal — maybe we can get one of the talented musicians here to take a crack at it (Blackhawk Pat?), keeping in mind all your suggested edits.

Of course, I will always love the original long version, but it would be interesting to hear an alternative.

[Craig Benfer]

Go All The Way A+

Don't Wanna Say Goodbye A

I Saw The Light A-

I Can Remember A-

Waiting A-

Get It Moving B-

Come Around And See Me C+

With You In My Life C-

Rock And Roll Mama C-

[LC]

Here's Eric talking about "I Can Remember" in the Ken Sharp book Overnight Sensation/The Story of The Raspberries:

"It was done live. It was way before we know any techniques of editing tape. I was always trying to write this epic thing. The natural outgrowth of 'I Can Remember' was 'All By Myself' in a strange way [but] I didn't go back and forth with the rock stuff and classical stuff in that one...."

He also talked about how his early bands, including Raspberries, were "doing all these medleys" ("We were famous for our 14-song Who medley!"). And he mentioned that he wrote "I Can Remember" as one cohesive piece, that it wasn't a matter of splicing together different songs:

"At some point I got into the idea of medleys, and rather than writing eight different songs and put them all together, why don't we just write one song that's kind of a medley to start with? As I recall, the crowning glory of that piece to me was trying to make the acoustic guitar turn into a piano, or I guess it was a Rickenbacker 12-string that turned into a piano...."

So... that matches how I've always heard it — a cohesive multi-part song rather than patchwork.

:-)

[LC]

A couple other interesting notes about "I Can Remember," also from the Sharp book:

* Wally pitched in with one of the verses. A Bryson quote: "Eric needed a verse between the soft part and where we go into the rock part; I wrote, 'From the day we met I knew that I should never let you get a hold on me 'cause now you see I can't forget you.'... I came up with that in the studio and gave it to him."

* Jim resisted doing the drum solo at the end: "Eric and I totally disagreed on the ending of that song. That was Eric's idea for me to play that drum part. I have to give him credit for that; I was 200 percent against it. Even in the studio I was complaining. But Jimmy Ienner was saying that it sounds good, and I kept saying it sounds ridiculous. The last part, where the drums just play as we're ending the song, I get to open up, but I didn't like it at all. As I reflect back, it works. I'm glad he talked me into it."

[Aventurine]

1. Waiting : A++

2. I Saw The Light : A++

3. I Can Remember : A+

4. Don't Want To Say Goodbye : A+

5. Go All The Way : A

6. Come Around And See Me : B

7. With You In My Life : B

8. Rock 'N' Roll Mama

9. Get It Movin'

[Billy K.]

All for of the albums are great, for different reasons.

But hands down, track #1 on album #1 is was got most of us going...........and it still stands up! Yes, I can write several pages analyzing "Go All the Way" and why this song and performance is so great. This #2 track also is excellent, and is extremely underrated......"GATW"/"Come Around and See Me", in my personal opinion, is one of the best 1-2 lead-off pairs, off an album, of all time!!

The two Smalley songs are a bit cliche'd, both in the music and lyrics department. But it's still our band, what can I say? And "second-level" Raspberries tunes are certainly more enjoyable than many other bands "top drawer" material.   

"I Can Remember"  is an incredible piece of work. "With You in My Life" has a little contrast to the ballad piano, and the rockers. Wally sounds like he's from Manchester UK, not Cleveland, in that song.

(1) Go All the Way (2) Come Around and See Me (3) I Can Remember (4) I Saw the Light (5) Get it Movin' (6) Don't Want to Say Goodbye (7) With You in My Life (8) Waiting (9) Rock and Roll Mama

And yes, a good remaster of this album is in order.

[Billy K.]

On 8/29/2013 at 5:25 PM, Billy K. said:

The two Smalley songs are a bit cliche'd, both in the music and lyrics department.

And I mean this, relatively speaking, of course.......especially when you have the incredible "GATW" and the epic "I Can Remember" on the same album. I do really get into "Get it Movin'" and rank it higher than most people do.

[LC]

Well, eight more years of hindsight found me retooling this list, too—including a new #1 for me.

1. Waiting: A+ (up from 3rd).

2. I Can Remember: A+ 

3. Go All the Way: A+ (same top grade, but I've slid it from 1 to 3—I'm in a ballad mood)   

4. I Saw the Light: A (up from 5).

5. Don't Wanna Say Goodbye: A– (down from 4, and from A to B+)

6. Come Around and See Me: B+  

7. Rock'n'Roll Mama: B– (same spot, down a little from a B)

8. With You in My Life: B– (up from a C and my 9th spot)

9. Get It Moving: B–. (I like the two Dave songs more than most; they're near the bottom of my list, but with good grades.)

And that's final! 

[Kirk]

LC, here was mine from last time:

Go All The Way

Don't Want To Say Goodbye

I Can Remember

I Saw The Light

Waiting

Come Around And See Me

Rock 'N' Roll Mama

Get It Movin'

With You In My Life

I think I would move With You In My Life to the 7 spot, and move Rock N Roll Mama to 8 and Get It Movin to 9.

[James]

On 11/2/2013 at 8:57 AM, James said:

1. I Can Remember A+

2. Waiting A+

3. Don´t Wanna Say Goodbye A

4. I Saw The Light A

5. With You In My Life A

6. Come Around and See Me A-

7. Go All The Way B+

..I don´t like the other 2

 

 

Mine again stays the same, which surprises me.

[Kirk]

James, my copy doesn't have 'I don't like the other 2'. Can you hum a few bars LOL!