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For the umpteenth time, Wally did not "write" the intro. He played it. The intro was already written (on the piano) when I brought the song in to the band. The proof is, it's played during the middle eight, under the lyric. All Wally did was play the hell out of it, and show me the different ways we could "voice it."

God, this crap drives me crazy!


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Eric Carmen said:

The proof is, it's played during the middle eight, under the lyric.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh...those two words---"middle eight."

I hadn't a clue what a middle eight was until that fateful day Miss M. posted something about a "middle eight", and my. my, my---I was "enlightened."

Yes, middle eight.

When I speak about a middle eight and those I am speaking to haven't a clue what I am speaking about, I often reference the song that has a middle eight that trumps every middle eight on the planet.

"Let's Pretend."

And just to help said person understand what a middle eight is, I happily "act out" the middle eight from the song, Let's Pretend.

Yes, acting it out has a far better impact on said person when *I* get all "Steve Allen" on the lyrics. Better than singing it for them...and it's one helluva crowd pleaser! grin

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Why thank you James. But please note, this is still about the Raspberries as "Let's Pretend" is a Raspberries song.

And now that I've learned about a "middle eight", it's fun to educate others on it. One never knows when one may need it for trivia.

Also, the great thing about the lyrics of this particular middle eight is, it's easy to practice them alone, but even better when shared with someone else.

I'm sure Steve Allen would be proud!

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I remember thinking about that when I read the liner notes for that Collector's Series CD years ago - if he claimed to have come up with the intro, why didn't he claim the first part of the bridge, too?

I appreciate it when someone writes about Raspberries, but I didn't really like this article. And maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that guy's name was Aleksic, not Aleskie.

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It's a dicey situation when you're writing with a band, that you have to live and perform with. Someone like Kara Diguardo can write a song with others, and submit it to the machine hoping that Carrie, Leanne, Celine, etc. pick it up, but it's much less personal.

So if you write 15 or 20% of the song legitamently can you copywrite percentages of songs, or is always equal?

Lennon-McCartney had a very unusual copywrite partnership. They were so competitive, wrote together, wrote separate, but quietly knew, the other was going to write as much as me.

They as kids agreed to 50-50 on everything, particpated or not, and knew it would average out, or perhaps, as kids, they weren't sure who would have more hits, and half of everything ain't bad.

EG: Lennon wrote A Day in the Life, but had no bridge, Paul had a bridge, because it was a song he had been working on, but turned his song into John's bridge. Technically, Paul should get maybe 20% credit. Why didn't John complain? Yesterday. John had nothing to do with Yesterday, and I don't even think he played on it.

Overall their songwriting production did even out, probably not unlike Jagger-Richards, Frey-Henley.

The problem is, though there are exceptions, Play On with Scott, Nobody Knows with Dave, or Don't Want to say Goodbye, with Wally, it still had to be pretty clear where the majority of the songwriting production (or at least what Capitol wanted to keep coming out) was going to come from, and splitting future copywrites equally carte blanche didn't make sense.

When you can knock out Let's Pretend and IWTBWY in the same weekend..

But Eric, does the system allow for credit uneven percentage splits should the songwriters actually agree in advance?

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Great question, Steve.

Actually, you can work out any kind of deal you want with other songwriters, but most of us just split the songs evenly.

Example. Andy Goldmark and I wrote all the lyrics and music to one of the songs we wrote together, but, for some reason, got hung up on one stupid line of the lyric. We just couldn't find a line we liked, and we beat ourselves up for a day on it.

Exhausted, Andy suggests we call Steve Kippner to help us out. Steve comes in, full of brand new energy, we kick around a few lines and end up with one we can agree on. We gave Steve 1/3 of the copyright. Didn't even debate it.

There is , however, a huge difference between writing and arranging. When I brought "Go All The Way" in to the band, it was a finished song. Every note of the melody, every chord, every word. But I had written it on the piano. I always visualized the song arranged for guitars, but I didn't sit down and work out every voicing of every chord. I knew what I was looking for, and it was going to be a bunch of "A" and "D" chords, played the same way I played them on the piano, but I needed to find the best way to "voice" the chords.

I played the chords on the piano, and asked Wally to show me different places on the guitar he could play them. As you know, you can play and "A" chord on the second fret, fifth fret, seventh fret, ninth fret, etc. Wally tried a couple of different frets, and when he hit the one I liked I said "That's it!" and the intro to "Go All The Way" was created. But that is not "writing".

Was Wally's contribution to the song invaluable? Absolutely. But did he "write" the intro? Absolutely not. In his role as lead guitarist, he found a great place to play the chords I had written, and he played the hell out of them.

When I worked with Steve Lukather and Davey Johnstone we worked exactly the same way. They all contributed great guitar parts, but that doesn't make them "co-writers."

By the way, the intros to "Ecstasy", "Tonight" "I'm A Rocker" and all of my other songs were conceived the same way, as well as the intros to all the songs I recorded as a solo artist.

End of story.

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Makes perfect sense. There are many famous long time studio musicians that add to the arrangement with their instumental stylings, and in many cases are more talented than the very band members they are assisting (which is why they are called in) , and they have no preconceived notion of getting cut into any composition copywrite based on their instrumental skill. Just have a check for them on Friday.

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Um, Dave.

You edited your post.

You know---the "hornish" part. Which made me think of the word...well, you know. Which made me think of the middle eight of the song, well, you know. Written by, well, you know.

Now, I can't do a post filled with sexual innuendos. And it's bumming me out. :(

Please next time, think before you edit. I will thank you for it and you will make my day. :);)

PS: I thought your joke was cute. :)

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Yes, I did, and the reason I did was because I used the same chords in the same way under the beginning of the middle eight ( Before her love I was cruel and mean.....). If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been able to bring in a "finished" song. It was just a matter of what fret to play the A-D-A, A-D-D on.

On the first album cover, they made a mistake and credited Carmen/ Bryson as the writers on the back cover, although, on the label of the album the writer credit just says E. Carmen. That typo caused a lot of problems.

Wally had nothing to do with "writing" "Go All The Way" any more than I had anything to do with "writing" "Come Around And See Me" or "With You In My Life", although I did help him "arrange" both of those tunes. Arrangement, however, is not writing.

I think Bernie mentioned this before, but the famous guitar riff that begins "Layla" was played by Duane Allman, not Eric Clapton. Did Duane get a writer credit? No. Great as that little riff is, it was "arrangement", not "writing." Now I don't know if Clapton came up with the part, and Duane just played it, or if Duane came up with it. But, in any case, it's not part of the lyric, melody or chords that make up the song. The song "Layla" exists without that riff, as Clapton demonstrated on the slowed down, unplugged version. And if I played "Go All The Way" on the piano, the way I wrote it, it too, would be just fine without that opening guitar riff. As a matter of fact, it's a really pretty song played that way.

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So, if I understand correctly, the guitar riff was already incorporated into the finished song, and you wanted that riff to form the opening of the song. Wally worked with you on chord position and voicing of the intro.

Let's say, and I'm not suggesting this took place, that in addition to the chord progression you wanted, that other chord progressions that you had already written and were somewhere else within the song were being discussed. Would that mere discussion entitle Wally to a writer's credit?

Also, and I'm not suggesting that this took place, if a writer finishes the verse and chorus of a standard song, have you ever heard of a case where another person gets a writer's credit for either forming an intro. utilizing a distinct chord pattern already within the song without the suggestion of the writer to use that particular progression or alternatively, coming up with an original opening riff?

I don't mean to sound like I'm taking your deposition but this is very interesting to me. If you have had enough of all this, please don't answer; you have already given us a lot of insight.


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Three things constitute a song. Lyrics, Melody and Chords. That's it. If you have written the melody, the chords and the lyric, you have a complete song.

When I work with studio musicians, we work together to find great parts for each of them to play. Some musicians need more direction than others. Likewise, some parts of the arrangement of a song usually require more work. But whatever anyone contributes, it's part of the arrangement, because the songs exists first, and stands on it's own without the studio musicians parts.

You can look at songs that would be hard to separate from their arrangement. Let's take "Honky Tonk Women" by the Stones. Obviously, the guitar part was an integral part of the arrangement and a slice of genius. Keith Richard wrote the music and so he gets a co-writer credit with Mick, who wrote the words. However, if Keith had just written the chords and the melody, and then Mick and Keith hired Ry Cooder to come in and play guitar, and Ry Cooder had made up all those cool guitar licks, he still would not necessarily get a co-writer credit, unless this was something Mich and Keith had agreed to beforehand. As great as those guitar parts are, they would still be considered arrangement, not writing.

I don't know how else to explain it. If this were not the case, then every musician who added a cool part to any record in the studio could claim to be a co-writer, which would make no sense at all. Charlie Watts could claim to have co-written the song, because he played the cow bell and drums that are the intro of "Honky Tonk Women."

Steve Cuomo, who played that beautiful bell-like keyboard intro to "Oh Sherry" by Steve Perry could claim to be a co-writer.

John Entwhistle could claim co-writer status because of the bass solo in "My Generation" and on and on and on...........

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Eric Carmen said:

Keith Richard wrote the music and so he gets a co-writer credit with Mick, who wrote the words. However, if Keith had just written the chords and the melody, and then Mick and Keith hired Ry Cooder to come in and play guitar, and Ry Cooder had made up all those cool guitar licks, he still would not necessarily get a co-writer credit, unless this was something Mich and Keith had agreed to beforehand. As great as those guitar parts are, they would still be considered arrangement, not writing.

Worth noting is that in his autobiography, "Stone Alone," Bill Wyman claimed that he came up with the distinctive main guitar riff on "Jumping Jack Flash." Because the words and music were written by Keith and Mick, Wyman does NOT get any songwriting credit.


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Eric Carmen said:

You would be hard pressed to find a middle eight in any song today. The "middle eight" was a construct of good songwriting, something totally unnecessary in today's market.

Totally unnecessary in today's market... would that be the "middle eight" or the "good songwriting", or "both"? (I think of much of the crap that makes top 40 today when I ask this question.)


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Jim Gordon contributed the piano coda at the end. The two parts were originally written as separate songs, but stuck together (like "A Day In The Life") to form one song, so he gets a songwriting credit. Duane based the opening riff on an Albert King blues melody:

After his spoken intro, you can hear it when he sings, "There is nothing I can do"—around the 1:13 mark :)


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