Rock & Roll Hall of Fame

[marvin]

If it's band name recognition, people might not be able to name a Sex Pistols tune, but EVERYONE knows who the band is. Can't say the same for Raspberries, unfortunately.

[hollies65]

Yeah, but The VU? The Dells? Not many people younger than me know who Del Shannon is. As a matter of fact the average person does not know one group or person we mentioned. I wish Jay Leno would do a man on the street. Not many people post on music boards...we're mutants!

[MJ]

I know who Del Shannon is -- if people went to see American Grafitti back in 1974 they got a primer on early rock and roll..... and we are probably way too absorbed in music........ but isn't it great???

[marvin]

We are a minority here. Although I am not a fan of the VU, I do know their music, their members, etc. In regard to the Dells, I actually have their music and appreciate the influence they had on vocal groups. Although I've read (many times) the criteria for getting into the Hall, I don't understand it. You want 'hit singles'? I give you Chicago, ELO and the Hollies. You want 'influence', I give you Raspberries. So HoF voters, tell me EXACTLY what do you want?

[hollies65]

It's all about who those music snob friends of Wenner think is cool. There are one or two guys like Little Steven who are not hipsters...otherwise hipster city.

[marvin]

Maybe, but there are a bunch of acts that aren't 'hip' that are in the Hall. We're still months away from the next induction. What kind of discussion will take place in 2009, when these artists become eligible:

A-Ha, Bronski Beat, The Cult, Dennis DeYoung, Honeymoon Suite, The Jesus and Mary Chain, Julian Lennon, Nick Cave, Pet Shop Boys, Peter Wolf, The Pogues, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Sade, Sheila E., Soul Asylum, Spinal Tap, Steve Morse, Steve Perry, Steve Vai, Stryper, Warlock, White Lion, Whitney Houston, Yngwie Malmsteen,

With all due respect, hopefully the 'hipsters' will look at those that have been overlooked before spending too much time with the above list.

[hollies65]

Hear hear.

[raspberrywolf]

I believe in a way this is connected to what PaulieMississippi stated in his thread regarding 'Free Speech Online:'

"The thing is, we still have the right to say what we believe... what we don't... and never did have... is the right to an audience. People don't get that. They think you have to listen to their gripes or their complaints or their grandiose ideas... or their bs... and you don't." ...

now that being said, I am sorry to say I agree that Marc Nathan has a right to express his opinion still even if we may not like or agree with it...BUT, just not Here (on this particular board) and not NOW!! We as loyal (and quite solidly reality-based) "Raspberries" devotees will Refuse to be his(or any other naysayer's) captive audience. Marc, feel free to continue to express your opinion regarding induction into the RRHOF...on your own website, thank you! :p

[Raspbernie]

Okay, so you're standing in the park with your baby in a baby stroller when a group of your closest friends happens to pass by.

"Your baby is soooo beautiful," one gushes.

"She has your eyes," says another.

"Well, that just has to be the most beautiful baby in the whole wide world," enthuses another as a smile breaks out across your face from ear to ear.

"You're kidding, right?," murmurs a stranger, let's call him Marc, from the park bench nearby. "There are least 50,000 babies better looking than yours."

Now, in my fictional little tale, what purpose is served by Marc's interjection?

[JohnO]

Just to toss in another 2 cents here......Agree with everything most of you are saying, especially the part about Raspberries being the Gods of "power pop"....and frankly, maybe that's what's holding them back from being considered, let alone elected....being saddled with that label.

How many "power pop" bands are in the HoF now? We can argue the early Beatles, early Who, songs by the likes of Petty, the Ramones, Elvis The C, Blondie, etc., but frankly, NONE of these acts are known first and foremost as being "power popsters". And if they were, they were seen and perceived as evolving over time into something closer to what we now think of as "classic rock".

Regarding the early work of the Beatles and Who...the 60's Brit invasion acts who never strayed far from their power pop sound, like the Hollies & Searchers, still aren't in the Hall yet. Ask John Q. Public about the Beatles & The Who, you'll likely hear about Sgt. Pepper, regarding the former, and post-Tommy arena rock, regarding the latter.

Power pop, to put it bluntly, has never been that big commercially - it sold in decent numbers twice - it did well during the mid-60s Brit invasion (when it wasn't known as "power pop"), and then, to a lesser extent, in the mid-to-late 70s, at the same time punk rock was also becoming popular. And the problem there was that power pop and punk were very similar, music-wise, to the point that confusion set in.

During this latter period, IMO, too many fans of the likes of CSNY, Springsteen, the Eagles, Pink Floyd, the Stones, etc., got hung up on appearance, the lack of songs with 16 chords in them, and sheer volume (EX: The Ramones cannot, by definition, be power pop - they dress in leather and torn jeans, play way too loud, have limited musical talent, and sing about heroin....ditto the Pistols, NY Dolls, Stooges, etc. - never mind the sheer catchiness of the tunes).

Many of the bands viewed as the real power poppers of the day (Flamin' Groovies, Big Star, Twilley, etc.) got caught between the two camps, and many of them wound up getting lumped in with the punks (the Groovies, for example, toured with The Ramones).....and truthfully, a lot of their music had more in common with the punks than most of the arena rockers of the day, IMO. However, some, like Raspberries, clearly did not - they tapped directly into the old Beatles/Who/Byrds vein. But I think their being known primarily as power poppers hasn't really helped them over the years.

If we really want to get Raspberries elected in our lifetimes, IMO, there needs to be some sort of a concerted effort to get their music across as what it really was and is - akin to The Beatles, Beach Boys and other mainstream (and acceptable) acts. Telling the likes of Wenner that they should be in because they invented (and/or perfected) power pop ain't gonna cut it, as much as we wish it would......there are too many people out there who associate power pop with a short-lived fad in the 70s.

P.S. I think we all realize that Marc used the 50,000 number just to make his point.

[JohnO]

LC - I didn't mean that the power pop label is the only thing keeping the band out....just that I don't think it's helped them in the least. It's limited peoples' views of their music, IMO, and kinda pigeonholes them into that very short time frame of musical history.

Agree about the rock & roll label...but frankly, I think that fell by the wayside with the early inductions of old blues, R&B and C&W artists. James Brown, Sam Cooke, Jimmie Rodgers & Robert Johnson were among the very first inductees in '86, BB King and Aretha in '87, etc. (NOTE: Some of these acts got in as influences, and not musical acts, I think...)

And yes, I agree, Raspberries belong in the HoF, but I doubt it'll happen.

(Aside to Marv: "Never Mind the Bollocks (not Bullocks)" isn't a song title, like the rest of your examples.........)

[marvin]

JohnO said:

(Aside to Marv: "Never Mind the Bollocks (not Bullocks)" isn't a song title, like the rest of your examples.........)

Yup I know it's not a song title. I used it as an example of a title that everyone is familiar with.

LC - I've never ever insinunated that the 'berries don't deserve to be in the Hall. My point is that they will never get in because there are not enough people who realize their worth, AND there is a long list of deserving acts who are better known.

[JohnO]

Wenner seems like such a petty little sh*t! I assume his objection to The Monkees stems from more than just the old "they didn't play their own instruments on their records" argument....which would also disqualify The Byrds (1st album), The Beach Boys, and numerous others in the Hall.

P.S. Kinda disappointing that Stipe didn't keep his word, but he's somewhat of a flake, having declared at one point that REM was more influenced by the Banana Splits than The Beatles!

The only act I recall who really made good on their promise to tell the R&R HoF to shove it if they got elected was the Sex Pistols, who no-showed their induction and never picked up their plaques (or paid for them).......

[JohnO]

Hmmm.....interesting.....the post above my last just got pulled. I responded to a post about The Monkees not getting into the R&R HoF, due to Mr. Wenner's dislike for them.....

In the article posted, they mentioned that Michael Stipe of REM (2008 inductees) stated back in '94 that he'd never let his band be inducted as long as The Monkees were still excluded from the Hall....

Attempts to reach him recently were met with no comment.....

[Raspyrock]

This may have been covered before but I will ask anyway. How or who determines who gets into the R&RHOF? Do certain writers have a say. Always thought certain writers/magazines had a fondness for the Raspberries??

[hollies65]

Jann Wenner picked a bunch of his hipster friends, for the most part.

[GMan]

Here's my reply...I agree with you 100% John. As for Stipe...I've heard him say a few disparaging things about The Beatles...I guess he's a "jealous guy" and a bit of a flake. He can only wish! As for Wenner...he said some really bad things about The Beach Boys too, back when the Monterey Pop Festival was being organized. Yeah...in his head he thinks he's hipster. Sorry I didn't get that in under the above post! I believe The Monkees should definitely in there.

[GMan]

Please excuse my ommission of a few words. After a coupla cups of coffee my mind is moving faster than my fingers. lol

[Raspbernie]

Wow! You guys are quick on the keyboard. I posted an article this morning from the L.A. Times on how the Monkees were aparently nominated for the Rock Hall but had their name pulled because Rolling Stone magazine founder (and Rock Hall boss) Jann Wenner objected. Anyway, I attempted to edit my post and deleted it by mistake! So, I apologize for the confusion in this thread now, but here is the original article, plus some additional info.

- - - -

Rock Hall snub irks ex-Monkee

By Joseph Dionisio

"So you better get ready," shouts the theme to the Monkees' 1960s' TV series, "we may be comin' to your town!" Unless, of course, your town is Cleveland.

Peter Tork says the Monkees merit consideration for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but one man opposes their induction.

How do the Monkees — whose Emmy-winning show aped the Beatles' film "A Hard Day's Night" — rank against other inductees? With 10 top 20 singles, they have more than the Animals, the Rascals, the Lovin' Spoonful, the Dells, Del Shannon, Frankie Lymon and Black Sabbath.

Bands as disparate as the Sex Pistols ("Steppin' Stone"), Run-DMC ("Mary, Mary") and the Church ("Porpoise Song") have covered Monkees' songs. Even Radiohead's "Go to Sleep" eerily channels Micky Dolenz's vocals.

"I'm convinced that Micky is one of the great singers of our time," Tork says. "He's always been something of a genius."

One notable fan is Michael Stipe, who reportedly vowed to bar R.E.M. from the Hall until the Monkees got in.

R.E.M. was finally inducted this year.

Wenner — who didn't reply to an interview request — allegedly denounces Tork, Dolenz, Davy Jones and Mike Nesmith for not playing their own instruments on the band's first albums.

In this "American Idol" era, when acts are "manufactured" like toasters, fewer critics crucify the Monkees for being a TV show that spawned a band. So have they faced an unfair standard? Were they, in fact, a "real" group?

"I've not heard the slightest murmur about the Monkees being fake," Tork, 65, says from his Connecticut home. "Everybody's forgotten it, except Wenner. He's been vicious."

Backed by producer Don Kirshner's songwriting stable — Carole King, Gerry Goffin, Neil Diamond, Neil Sedaka, Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart — the band unleashed four straight No. 1 albums and three chart-topping singles. They eventually penned their own catchy pop tunes, albeit with less chart success.

"George Harrison used to say he wished his best songs were as good as the worst of Lennon-McCartney," Tork says. "So, we used to hope our best songs were as good as the worst of the Brill Building."

Tork's fame, however, is more about musicianship than songwriting. So said Jimi Hendrix, who called him the most talented Monkee. The guitarist opened several Monkees' gigs, including a '67 show at New York's West Side Tennis Club. Was his compliment accurate?

"I'm not sure it's quite true," says Tork, who plays guitar, banjo, piano and bass. "I'm far and away the best-trained musician, but I"m in awe of all three [Monkees]. Jimi meant that I was the most [receptive] to his kind of music."

—The Los Angeles Times

May 04, 2007

- - - -

Peter Tork Says The Monkees Deserve To Be In The Rock Hall Of Fame

The Monkees star Peter Tork has blasted music mogul Jann Wenner for keeping the Daydream Believer hitmakers out of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Tork claims the respected Rolling Stone magazine editor and publisher has the power to veto acts that merit induction into the Cleveland musical museum - and he hates The Monkees.

Bitter Tork tells Newsday, "The only person... holding a grudge is Jann Wenner of Rolling Stone. He has never written a gracious word (about us)." Tork has spoken out about the snub after watching groups like the Sex Pistols and Run-DMC, who have covered Monkees tunes, get inducted to the Hall of Fame in recent years.

R.E.M. singer Michael Stipe offered the guitarist some hope when he told Rolling Stone the Monkees were more important to him than the Beatles, reportedly stating he would refuse an induction if it meant getting into the Hall of Fame before Tork and co.; but R.E.M. were inducted into the Cleveland museum in March.

Tork claims Wenner's concerns about the group stem from long-forgotten claims The Monkees weren't for real, and were nothing more than a band created for a TV show.

He adds, "I've not heard the slightest murmur about The Monkees being fake (lately). Everybody's forgotten it, except Wenner. He's been vicious."

—World Entertainment News Network

May 5, 2007

----

How to Get Into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame for Dummies

On March 12, R.E.M. will be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Berry/Buck/Mills/Stipe more or less invented and perfected "alternative" rock, wrote a string of great albums, built their audience on their own terms, had a few mammoth hits and were pretty much infallible until the departure of Bill Berry in 1997. The Hall is a ridiculous institution, but it's a well-deserved honor.

Then, in the "Undeserved" column, there's Patti Smith. She's pretentious, overrated, musically forgettable. But she has friends and fans (like Michael Stipe) in the right places, so she's in. Like few others, she has been able to convince the rock intelligencia that she is Hall of Fame material, in spite of making perfectly decent but very ordinary music. In fact she could write a book called How to Get into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame for Dummies. For those of us who don't have time to read the entire volume, I'll top-line it for you.

• Position yourself as a poet whose outlet just happens to be rock music

• Adopt the androgynous, unshowered hollow-cheekboned, war-baby look perfected by late-60s Mick & Keith

• Have a clear connection to the Ramones (Smith also got her start at CBGB)

• Marry a fellow critic's darling (Her late husband was Fred "Sonic" Smith of the equally overrated proto-punk band the MC5.)

• Sport a guitarist who moonlights as a rock critic (Lenny Kaye, who also compiled the critically hallowed garage-band comp Nuggets)

• Trash a religious, political or musical idol on your first album — this will make you "important" (Horses starts with the line "Jesus died for someone's sins, but not mine")

• In interviews, casually drop the "right" references: Dylan, Rimbaud, Ginsberg, Mappelthorpe, Brian Jones

• At photo sessions, assume the pose of a high priestess or sha-woman rock & roll survivor

• Have one hit song, so critics can say you "briefly dabbled with mainstream success" ("Because the Night" written with Bruce Springsteen)

To her credit, Patti Smith has a nice voice and an excellent stage presence, as I saw at a Tibet House benefit in the 90s. A few years later, I saw her bring up the rear of the Greenwich Village Halloween parade by playing on the bed of a moving truck — a cool gesture and brilliant homage to the Stones. She admirably dropped out of the music biz for several years to raise her family.

But is she really any better musically than, say, the Go-Go's? Here was a truly pioneering, all-woman rock band, playing their own instruments, having their way with male groupies, partying as hard as Van Halen, and writing instant-classic pop tunes like "Our Lips Are Sealed" that sold millions and still sound great today.

Yet on March 12, while the rock elite hails Smith as a poet, prophet and priestess, the Go-Go's and other equally deserving without the right street-cred — XTC, the English Beat, The Jam, Squeeze — will huddle outside the Waldorf, sharing a smoke and a bottle of Night Train.

—rockturtleneck.blogspot.com

March 8, 2007

[marvin]

Similar discussions take place on the Monkees Messgae board, Chicago's Message Board, KISS' Message Board, ELO's Message Board...etc.

[hollies65]

The fact of the matter is the Monkees should be in. They had dozens of great songs [Many written by the group] and yes...Micky was one of the 60s best voices. The guy above made some great points.

[Raspyrock]

hollies65 said:

The fact of the matter is the Monkees should be in. They had dozens of great songs [Many written by the group] and yes...Micky was one of the 60s best voices. The guy above made some great points.

I echo these sentiments.

[Raspyrock]

Thanks for the info Bernie.

[marvin]

If here on this Message Board there is argument on who should (or shouldn't) be in the Hall, you can assume that the HoF voters have similar struggles. You'll never convince me that Black Sabbath deserves to be in the Hall, but that's just me. I'm sure fans of that band would probably put up a fight about bands that I think should be inducted.

[Raspbernie]

Here's a list of just some of the artists that are eligible but have NOT yet been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame:

Deep Purple

Moody Blues

Yes

Alice Cooper

Genesis

Jethro Tull

Neil Diamond

Chicago

The Hollies

The Guess Who

The Cars

Electric Light Orchestra

Cheap Trick

Doobie Brothers

Roxy Music

Styx

Grand Funk Railroad

Carole King

KISS

Three Dog Night

Joe Cocker

Donovan

Cat Stevens

Hall & Oates

T. Rex

Foreigner

Todd Rundgren

The Monkees

ABBA

Tommy James & the Shondells

Badfinger

Bad Company

Emerson, Lake & Palmer

The Grass Roots

Lesley Gore

Linda Ronstadt

Bon Jovi

Carpenters

Sonny & Cher

The Small Faces

New York Dolls

America

The Turtles

Procol Harum

Mott the Hoople

Chubby Checker

Raspberries

Eric Carmen

Herman's Hermits

Big Star

Barry Manilow

Blind Faith

10cc

Sweet

The Association

Not that I think all of them should be in the Rock Hall, but there are no doubt some pretty well-known and successful performers on this list.