What exactly is "business casual"?

[Captain Harlock]

I don't understand. Is it really that bad that I have no clue about this kind of thing?

[Bessieboo]

No it's not

It doesn't matter

Dress for your world, and the events you attend.

You may not need to wear anything other than Tshirts.

When you are asked to dress a certain way for work or an event, I would.

There is nothing wrong with extending yourself... do something different than your usual

[Ecstasy]

Beth, you are the business partner I've been looking for all these YEARS!!! Excellent!!! Can you do the same thing for women's and children's special occasion clothing? I can design and sew my heart out if you can sell it like that!!!

I think one of the things that Beth is getting at is that we aren't talking about what is comfortable and familiar for you. We're talking about what is required for this job regardless of your personal taste. You HAVE to fit your surroundings when it's necessary. You don't have to wear this stuff in your everyday life but you will have it on hand when required.

[JohnO]

Captain - We have "casual business dress" Fridays where I work, and we've been told - no jeans, T-shirts, or sweatsuits....anything else is (and has been) worn here.

[Lee Marshall]

Man!!!!

Am I ever glad that I work for a great boss.

Me. :p

[JohnO]

"Am I ever glad that I work for a great boss.

Me."

Lee - Well, at least that explains some of your comments above. If you can make a good living not having to interact face-to-face with people, especially those who judge you by your appearance, then more power to you, you're lucky!

While I'm also my own boss, my staff and I choose to follow certain conventions, primarily due to the nature of our business, which includes meeting and dealing with the public and govt. officials. In order to deal with them as effectively as possible, it's best to dress like them as well. If that makes us "sheep" or "lemmings", etc. by wearing suits/ties, or the type of clothing in Bessieboo's examples on casual Fridays, then so be it.

I heard a similar statement from Jello Biafra, singer of The Dead Kennedys, many years ago while interviewing him. Jello actually ran for Mayor of SF once, on a platform which included making every businessman in the city who makes a certain amount (I think it was $50 or $60K at the time), wear a clown suit once a week. To him, the suit & tie crowd were sub-human, and nothing more than sheep/lemmings. (He also finished a respectable 4th in the election, I believe.)

During the interview, I mentioned to him that the members of the 4 punk bands that played that night (at George Washington University), as well as the several hundred fans who attended the show, all seemed to be similarly attired (jeans or leather, t-shirts of punk bands, Doc Marten boots)...and wore similar hairstyles as well!....and I asked him - shouldn't your fans also have to wear clown suits every other show or so? - They appear to be as much fashion lemmings as businessmen or anyone else.....He conceded the point.

[Raspyrock]

And if your having a biz luncheon w/ Bea Arthur,

what should your attire be??

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=sfp&va=Bea+Arthur&sz=

Should I seek therapy?? (don't answer that -- rhetorical question!)

Yes, I'm in rare form today.

[Lee Marshall]

The entire concept of 'fashion' and the need to wear 'uniforms' at work...or elsewhere, has always struck me as both 100% hilarious and pitiful...simultaneously.

We like to think of ourselves as 'indiviuals'...particularly OUR generation. Yet nothing could [truly and realistically] be further from the truth.

I find it sad. But our generation proved to be pretty much full of 'merde' from the get-go.

It's embarassing to be a boomer.

We blew it.

[Bessieboo]

It is nothing new for people to conform to society's fashion guidelines.

Males of West Papua go entirely naked but for a long thin gourd tied to their "Personalities" (ladies wear grass skirts).

For years women wore corsets and cinchers, and layers upon layers of shirts. Let's not forget today's thong.

As odd and restrictive the current fashion may be there are expectations of compliance.

There are no fashion police enforcing a particular look.

But if a employer is asking for a certain level of dress, it is in your best interest to meet that standard. You don't have to comply... but your boss could easily replace you with someone who will dress accordingly.

I'm not quite sure if I qualify as a Baby boomer,

if I do it would be on the tail end.

Perhaps my different opinion "generation thing".

[JohnO]

"Males of West Papua go entirely naked but for a long thin gourd tied to their "Personalities""

Raspyrock - I believe we have the answer for what to wear at a biz luncheon with Bea Arthur!

[Lee Marshall]

Bessie/John...I 'get' it. I just find it needless. But I do dress somewhere near what might be expected if I'm doing something that requires my 'dressing' for an occaision. It's done out of respect for others.

Mind you if I'm not comfortable in every way I don't wear it. Period.

[JohnO]

"It's done out of respect for others."

..which, IMO, is the primary reason for tons and tons of (to me) idiotic rules, regulations, dress codes, etc. While I tend to agree that boomers blew it (in many more ways than one), I think we could do more in the way of explaining to younger generations as to why things are done in certain ways. Just telling them "do it", without giving them a reason why.....Hell, they can join the Army or Navy (or get married) and get that 24/7!.....

Back to the original topic - Captain - Why in God's name do you have to dress in business casual for an improv comedy show anyway??? Perhaps a Ramones t-shirt may be more appropriate....(but only if it's the original foursome....if Marky's there, well maybe...but if C.J.'s there, too - is it really The Ramones at that point???)

Captain

[marlene]

I find it sad. But our generation proved to be pretty much full of 'merde' from the get-go.

It's embarassing to be a boomer.

We blew it.

Sorry, but I couldn't DISAGREE with you more !!

[Lee Marshall]

We had a chance to change the world. It was right there. All we had to do was reach out and do it.

Instead...nothing has changed...except WE'RE the ones with the big houses, big cars, big toys. And what of the 'gear shift'?... It's...not so much in neutral...but, in fact, in reverse.

Things are desparately 'unchanged'. Normal remains KING. And "the trouble with normal is...it ALWAYS gets worse".

When Peter Fonda said to Dennis Hopper at the end of 'Easy Rider'..."WE blew it."...He was talking about US. We were just to full of 'it' to get THAT.

In the U.S...Bush makes 'Atom Bomb' Barry Goldwater look like a bleeding heart liberal from the *extreme* left. In Canada we have Stephen Harper [pm]. HE makes John Diefenbaker look like a welfare champion of the highest order.

Oh ya. WE blew it. [right up in our collective faces]

[Steeler Deb]

Lee,

Are you consuming those adult beverages again?

I have to disagree with you. I am proud to be a "boomer". Maybe you can't see it, but some us did make our mark on the world for the better.

As for a dress code at work, I'm glad that we have one. I enjoy looking nice at work.

There is the saying that " clothes make the man/woman" and that is exactly true.

[Lee Marshall]

Well I can understand how people aren't gonna want to shoulder the responsibilty for the fact that WAR is still the way we do things...that the rich continue to get richer while the poor...well...you know.

Kids these days make us look almost angelic...by comparison. We collectively are/were pretty lousy parents. The racial divides are still pretty wide. Health care is going down the toilet. There'll soon not be enough money for old-age pensions. The environment...THAT WE WARNED *OURSELVES* about is going down the toilet. The infrastructure is crumbling but NO MORE TAXES is all we care about.

Ya we did a great job.

Where?

[oh...and no beverages today. ]

[Captain Harlock]

"It's done out of respect for others."

..which, IMO, is the primary reason for tons and tons of (to me) idiotic rules, regulations, dress codes, etc. While I tend to agree that boomers blew it (in many more ways than one), I think we could do more in the way of explaining to younger generations as to why things are done in certain ways. Just telling them "do it", without giving them a reason why.....Hell, they can join the Army or Navy (or get married) and get that 24/7!.....

Back to the original topic - Captain - Why in God's name do you have to dress in business casual for an improv comedy show anyway??? Perhaps a Ramones t-shirt may be more appropriate....(but only if it's the original foursome....if Marky's there, well maybe...but if C.J.'s there, too - is it really The Ramones at that point???)

Captain

One of the guys who runs the improv group (Matt) is a bit

"fashionista" if you will. When the other guy, T. Paul, is running a show it's much looser. Last time out I wore a black t-shirt and jeans. When Matt's in charge we have to goose step right in line. I don't understand what the difference is myself. All he's doing is making it harder on people in the group.

[Captain Harlock]

I heard a similar statement from Jello Biafra, singer of The Dead Kennedys, many years ago while interviewing him. Jello actually ran for Mayor of SF once, on a platform which included making every businessman in the city who makes a certain amount (I think it was $50 or $60K at the time), wear a clown suit once a week. To him, the suit & tie crowd were sub-human, and nothing more than sheep/lemmings. (He also finished a respectable 4th in the election, I believe.)

During the interview, I mentioned to him that the members of the 4 punk bands that played that night (at George Washington University), as well as the several hundred fans who attended the show, all seemed to be similarly attired (jeans or leather, t-shirts of punk bands, Doc Marten boots)...and wore similar hairstyles as well!....and I asked him - shouldn't your fans also have to wear clown suits every other show or so? - They appear to be as much fashion lemmings as businessmen or anyone else.....He conceded the point.

I've found that punks often preach non-conformity and they are the biggest conformists of all.

[Ecstasy]

Lee, where is all of this coming from just because a boss asks an employee to look presentable in public? I feel no need to make apologies for my parenting or for the bi-racial home I have currently or the bi-racial home I grew up in. I don't feel I "blew it" at all. I've done my best to change my little corner of the world and am damn proud of it. We all make choices about what occasions we choose to rise to or ignore --- that's life! Sometimes I get stuck looking at society or the collective. When I'm SMART I'm looking at the few who do things one step at a time.

[Kirk]

CH- I may have missed this somewhere in the thread, but just where Dockers and a shirt with a collar- that's about as simple as it gets- Kirk.

[Lee Marshall]

Lee, where is all of this coming from just because a boss asks an employee to look presentable in public? I feel no need to make apologies for my parenting or for the bi-racial home I have currently or the bi-racial home I grew up in. I don't feel I "blew it" at all. I've done my best to change my little corner of the world and am damn proud of it. We all make choices about what occasions we choose to rise to or ignore --- that's life! Sometimes I get stuck looking at society or the collective. When I'm SMART I'm looking at the few who do things one step at a time.

Many have succeeded. Many more have tried...and measured varying degrees of positive. It's not like NO ONE has made an HONEST effort. Collectively though...things have not improved. They've only worsened.

AND...we still have idiot thinking running our governments and istitutions...ever so poorly. Only difference is...these individuals are way worse than what we were supposedly ready to stand up against and CHANGE.

We just never got around to THAT. As a result...we have no one to blame but ourselves. We can "ya but/Ya but" all we want. It doesn't make this a better or safer...or more sane world. The other things that change are the rules of the game. The game we LET them play at our collective expense.

A far detour from what to wear for these "clowns"

though isn't it? And in playing their game? I think we all lose.

[Muzza]

And maybe by knocking the generation is also "playing their game". Lee, I don't know whether you have ever traveled overseas but I can assure you that my own experience is that we have much to be grateful for and and much to be proud of. If we look for the weaknesses we WILL find them. If we look for the good stuff we will ALSO find that. It is a matter of what you want life to be for yourself. Having just visited the USA there is much which I wish we had in New Zealand. I am also proud of what we have in New Zealand and accept that is what life is like here. If I don't like it I can always go somewhere else.

How I dress in any circumstance is my choice based of how I want to feel about myself in that situation. If I dress in a manner that distracts people from hearing the message I am trying to convey or clouds the good service I am trying to give THAT is my fault, nobody elses. Respecting the position or the situation sometimes is more important than me "doing it my way". That doesn't mean I'm playing "their game". It means I'm part of a community and don't live in a vacuum where I can do what I like.

Yes, politicians and business people etc do seem to make stupid decisions or behave in less than acceptable ways. But this isn't something that started with our "boomer" generation. It has existed down through the ages. Look at the 1920's and see how everyone followed the crowd. There was little sense in a lot of the dress code but people did it because that was how life was lived then.

I'm proud of my generation and what we have achieved. I am also disappointed that we have also sat on our hands over some things. That doesn't mean I'm going to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Muzza

[Lee Marshall]

Muzza...I HEAR all of that. And I agree with you.

BUT...*WE* were supposed to change it. We didn't.

[Raspyrock]

I think us boomers did pretty good. Not so sure about in the fashion area but when I was 13 - 15 I thought those bell-bottom jeans (I had) w/ all the extra stitching were pretty cool! And toga parties were pretty cool too ( a few yers later )!!!

[James]

I might agree that previous generations were better than us, but I'm not sure, I'd have to think about it some..

But to say our generation is worthless is ridiculous:

Medicine: There has been tons of new drugs, medicines, technological development etc

Race relations: The progress that's been made in my lifetime is just short of a miracle.. though the Jesse Jacksonization of society could eventually take us backwards.

Environment: There has been tangible progress. Many bodies of water are cleaner than they were 40 years ago (great lakes, various important rivers). The Everglades is coming back because of work our generation is doing. In Naples, FL (where I travel to 3-4 times/year) there is more abundance of fishlife in the Gulf of Mexico than when I was a kid in the 60s and 70s. Many species of animals around the world that were close to extinct are making comebacks. I believe clean air legislation has caused the air to become cleaner over many industrial cities.

Women: Women are in a much better societal position to be who, and what, they want to be ..than they were 40 years ago..

War: Western governments challenge themselves in a much tougher way before committing troops to war.. relative to 40-50 years ago.

Comforts: Because of new products/technology developed by recent generations, life is much more comfortable than it was 40 years ago...and that's a good thing!

Individualism: I would say that there is less societal pressure to conform than at most times in our country's history, and thus a person feels freer now to be him/herself....and that's a great thing!

And so much more..