Mel Gibson's wife files for divorce......

[Kholvn]

Too bad divorce isn't like the olden days of the Keetoowah. When a woman divorced her husband all they had to do was set all of the man's belongings outside the lodging. The man came home and knew it was over and just picked up his things. Of course the woman already owned the home and kept the kids. But the man could go back to his hunting and fishing.

But then Europeans came and thought they could improve on that.

[Leff'tHome]

[darlene]

I have to stand corrected on Mel Gibson. I did some digging and found out that he's not as nice on all fronts as I thought. He apparently went into some anti-Semitic ravings and his upbringing included a father who was vilely anti-Semitic. Maybe not too far from Hitler, but I don't know enough to say.

As usual, Eric was well-versed in the guy's character before he spoke. I apologize that I wasn't as well-versed before I did.

At home and hearth he must have been a better person at least for years because Mrs. G stayed with him and had seven children or so. She apparently had enough of something to leave. But half a billion isn't bad as settlements go...

--D

[missm]

Eric

I read your discourse with James with great interest. So much so it caused me to do some homework on your behalf.

The quote you "paraphrased" as having been said by your brother-in-law can be found in John 14:6-7.

In as far as God condeming anyone to hell, whether reported by Mel Gibson or anyone else, it is not true. You are right, God is a loving God. Assignation of anyone to hell or anywhere else is His Divine Right...and no one else's. Don't you find it amusing that people can always find something in "The Bible" to support an otherwise ridiculous and repugant point of view.

Moving forward, you mentioned Mel's stating that some or all of his diatribe were "statements from the chair". Evidently, he meant from the chair in his house. The chair he tried to shift his nonsence onto is the Chair of Peter, which is the chair in which the Pope sits. Peter was the first Pope. Please read Matthew 16:17-19 to determine by whose authority Peter was Pope. By bringing the Chair of Peter into this mess, Mel is dangerously close to being a heretic. Heresy is the denial of a revealed truth or the distortion of one so that others are deceived into believing a theological error.

Eric, I respect your assertions (as well as those belonging to James) and thank you for being the catalist for my looking into Radical Traditionalist Catholocism. Well, here is that word again...Heretics and Heresy.

I won't pretend to have all the answers to all things Catholic and sugggest that you get copies of the following books; The Catholic Bible, Catholocism for Dummies. All information I have written here can be found in both of those books. Also, there is a name for the people who died before Jesus was born and thus did not know of him. Well as near as I can find they are Martyrs who died before there could be a baptism by water. The divine mercy of God wouldn't penalizem them or ignore their sacrifice. Only God knew and knows their souls.

[julesberry]

Anyone judged a heretic by the catholic church historically should wear it as a badge of honor.

They branded alot of wonderful people as heretics over the years, folks like Gallileo for instance.

My goodness, have they named all the recent preists accused of atrocities against children as heretics? Ofcourse not, they tried to cover their butts and pay everyone off. " Catholicism For Dummies?," did Mel Gibson write that one?

The Chair of Peter???, might as well be the coffee table of Paul. (Paul McCartney that is, much more joyful than the church any day. )

Any Christian church who thinks they are " the way" are ingnorant and devisive and arrogant. Wonderful attributes for any church and certainly not in line with Christ's teachings, who by the way was a heretic in his own time in case that point is lost on anyone.

We are lost if we do not begin respecting the religions of others and understanding that we all seek the same God.

Mel Gibson sucks. Case closed.

[Brian Mc Carthy]

Yes Darlene that is exactly what i learned in my Sunday school classes those who died before Christ was born will be given the chance to accept the Good News on the day of judement

[Eric Carmen]

If I live to be a thousand, I'll never understand why people can't just believe in God, and leave it at that.

I guess maybe the Devil IS in the details.

e

[chris hess]

i did not read this whole thing,but saw eric's response..i do'nt understand why people cant just believe in God got to me..i believe the same..speaks volumes..lol,chris

[Brian Mc Carthy]

Well i was taught in Sunday School And read and viewed on critically acclaimed religious movies like Jesus of Nazareth that The father son and holy spirit are as one

[raspberrywine]

Totally agree, it should have been just about God. But what did humanity do? We built our religions around the message carriers, the middle men. Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, they were middle men. We should have formed our ultimate spiritual destiny around God, but every culture and region of the world is stuck on their middle men. The messages are all similar in many regards though theyve been bastardized and diluted. For example, I am often amazed at how so many Christians are ignorant of the revolutionary nature of Jesus' message. Because it's easier to live a watered down answer to the problem if you just say "you believe,", eat that wafer, and do not follow that revolutionary call to alter yourself and reprioritize in line with the actual teachings.

That means not putting the morning lattes and vacations in the Bahamas above the poor for example.

God might be a quantum blip in the vacuum of space or an old man with a beard and cigar sitting in the clouds, who knows. But it's the same answers we seek after but we refuse to recognize that in our Us vs. Them mentaility. Organized religions around the middle men havent solved our quests, havent led to good things in our cultures, but only compounded our problems and our disharmonies. Perhaps someday in the future we will recognize this and quit supporting these versions of power structures that seek to blind people from greater realities and take their money along the way.

We can only hope that we come to understand that if there is a God it wasnt my God vs. your God. Thats kindergarten. This planet, let alone the galaxy, is a side story in this universe. In our species ethnocentrism we love to believe in the importance of man's story. But this story wasnt created for ourselves no matter what we wish to think. We should be humbled, instead in our arrogance we wish to fit this universe, and God, into our schemes and desires. My, how small we truly are.

[Brian Mc Carthy]

I dont get analytical about my religion Thats not what faith is about Its spiritual from the heart Jesus told his disciples that they think too much and feel to little And to open up their hearts not their minds Open up their eyes and their hearts

[seattlesteve]

I'd make a terrible ambassador on this subject, whatever I believe, and whatever you believe is cool.. it doesn't transcend or define me, or you, on all aspects of life, I have no urge to preach, judge, or convert you, and if we're still talking, you apparently feel the same way.

See, I'm a terrible ambassador by not making you see the light..

[darlene]

Some people do just believe in God and let it go at that. Religion and politics have both been terrible dividers of people.

Besides loving the music, I adore playing in orchestras and ensembles because you just sit next to someone who understands the language of music the way you do, and you enjoy the music together and enjoy each other for sharing that!

Nobody asks or even wants to know what you believe when they sit down next to you to make music, or take the stage as a soloist, or accompany you when you solo. Nobody cares! The music's the thing, and it's a beautiful uniter.

I sat in an orchestra this weekend with people from several different countries, all of different ages, religious beliefs and value systems, and had the time of my life. And we all exchanged so many hugs after playing Gershwin's "An American In Paris" and Faure's Requiem, I left with the feeling that I hope I can see and play with these people again very soon, because we weren't Christians, Jews or Muslims--we were a bunch of people creating something beautiful together. If only life could imitate art.

--Darlene

[boopell]

I suppose I'm spiritual rather than religious. I believe in God, but question all the rest.

I agree with Steve--I don't have an opinion of the beliefs of others and would never presume to tell them they're wrong or doomed.

I've associated with people of many faiths and beliefs (atheists included) all my life and we all got along fine.

Maybe the key was friendship and respect and realizing people are people and friends are friends regardless of differences in beliefs. And the realization that we're all searching in our own way for the same thing.

[darlene]

Great post, boopell. And we *are* all searching for the same thing in our own way. The human condition is such that there's so much we don't know and the path to one's own truth is long and arduous. That's why it's so important to count our own blessings every day.

--Darlene

[Eric Carmen]

Darlene,

Great post.

Music accomplishes everything religion doesn't. It takes people from different backgrounds, cultures and belief systems and unites them, while creating something beautiful and inspiring.

No one has ever been tortured or murdered in the name of music. No wars have ever been fought over musical differences.

We just sit back and listen, and it transports us to a better place.

Now THERE'S a religion I can get on board with.

[James]

Music is beautiful, and can be a uniter as Darlene articulated.

Christianity is beautiful, and can be a uniter.

I've seen black and white, female and male, American and foreigner, old and young, rich and poor...I've seen them all come together and bond, motivated by the love of Christ.

Religion also has been used to justify horrendous deeds committed by humans on humans.

But so has music. Wagner inspired Hitler. The Beatles inspired Manson. Listen to some Rap lyrics, and the violence they depict and inspire. And there's more.

My point is that it's the bad element of human nature that causes the bad in the world. It's not music, or Christianity or other noble religions.

On the contrary, the core of Christianity (and the core of other noble religions) influence and inspire their adherents to be better human beings.

It's my conclusion from my reading of history that if religion never existed, there would have been much more lost than gained, and the human race would be on a lower moral plane than the plane where we sit now.

To me this isn't even a close call.

[Tony Cartmill]

No one has ever been tortured or murdered in the name of music.

Well, I don't know. If I listen to more than 30 seconds of Gangsta' Rap "Music", I feel I've been tortured, and I usually murder the source of the "music".

Have you ever seen what a 44 Magnum does to a boom box?

[Tony Cartmill]

Keep it up James...You are already on DHS Napolitano's "watch list"!

[angelina]

are those helicopters overhead??????????????????

[Ecstasy]

Eric, your kids aren't teenagers yet. Trust me. You CAN be tortured in the name of music! (Joking aside, I've been fortunate with them most of the time.)

[rockynrobyn1977]

I like a lot of the music that's out now. There are some really talented people like Maroon 5 and Pink with pretty good videos.

[Shelley]

Eric, your kids aren't teenagers yet. Trust me. You CAN be tortured in the name of music! (Joking aside, I've been fortunate with them most of the time.)

Oh God, my younger son when he was in High School, and his "rap"...crap...I couldn't stand it....I remember telling him that wasn't music it was crap...I told him go listen to the Beatles, or the Raspberries...now that was music...He's 23 now, and I can say He's passed that phase...Thank goodness...rap isn't music...its crap.

[Brian Mc Carthy]

I agree with Eric to a certain point On a broad scope universally there have been no wars fought as a direct result about a difference in opinion over music HOWEVER there are isolated cases of people being hurt or killed and even takin their own lives because of some of the lyric content in RAP and Heavy metal

[Eric Carmen]

I guess we'd need to define the term "music". I wouldn't include heavy metal and rap. Those genre's are not music. They may call themselves music, because they make recordings and sell them, and there may an instrument played on the record, but, to me, that doesn't mean it's music.

I could take a machine gun into a recording studio, record a few bars, edit them together, throw and electronic drum beat on top of it, and then scream at the top of my lungs for five minutes, and intersperse it with someone reciting the pledge of allegiance, and I could call it "music," but it's not.

Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Debussy, The Beatles and The Beach Boys are music. Music involves melody and harmony, not drum samples and talking. Or screeching guitars, feedback and screaming.

We could form a new sporting league, tomorrow, and set it up so that one player stand on an elevated mound and throws hand grenades toward a "batter" who swings a lead pipe and then runs from one land mine to the next. We could call it "Extreme Baseball." That doesn't make it baseball.