kv Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Influence is one thing, paying homage, even borrowing a lick or a lyric here or there is just a part of pop music. Every hit song from the 60's and 70's is a part of every one of my songs. However, nicking a significant unique portion to create your own new song is just ripping off an artist. That's not to say even that can't be unintentional.The tough thing with these suits is proving access. In this particular case...well, let's just say Tommy's gonna be rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollies65 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I agree...and I think it's great that they're gonna get paid for such a great song...probably the greatest bubblepop song ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I'd say this depends on how good Tommy's/the Rubinoos' lawyer is, versus Avril's.....which, sadly, is what usually decides such court cases, assuming it gets that far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I just heard Avril's tune for the first time on a friend's PC (mine won't play youtube clips)....and honestly, I don't think any jury would likely rule in Tommy D's favor. Avril's chorus is, as Zuke pointed out above, as similar to the Stones' "Get Off My Cloud" as it is "Boyfriend".....but the tune's almost entirely different, as are the lyrics. Add to this the fact that you've got someone who's well known to the public (and rich) versus a relative unknown, plus, if you have baby boomers on the jury, they're likely to think the Rubinoos swiped their chorus from the Stones in the first place.....If her lawyer agrees to settle out of court, I'd take it! Just my 2 cents after hearing the offending song one time...(whereas I suspect most jurors might be hearing "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend" for the first time....and BTW, didn't they steal that song title from a tune on The Ramones' first LP?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollies65 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Ha! Steal song titles. As much as I agree with alot of your music takes we're far apart on this one. As far as copping the Stones...well yeah...that is a bit of a cop..but Avrils cop is more blatant down to the boyfriend /girlfriend thing. Who copped who when does not mean anything...it's who decides to do something about it in a court of law. 'My Sweet Lord' sounds ALOT more like 'Oh Happy Day' to my ears.BTW...if the jury were made up of 6 or 7 Hollies65s....that'd be a jury to rule in Tommy's favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvin Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I didn't know Avril's song very well at all, but knew the Rubinoos song VERY well. I can see the fuss, but I don't hear too much of a similiarity between the two. I then played the Rubinoos song for Kristy - who knows the Avril song VERY well but doesn't know the Rubinoos song - and she says that the Avril song is a copy. I think you're going to get a real variety of opinions on this one.Marv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 There should be (and probably will be) some digital algorithm that calculates a number of different sonic similarity tests, through chord progression, lyric, beat, etc.. that will constitute the "percentage" of similarity, and output some number that can be used as a benchmark for similarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 While I don't think Tommy D. would win in court, it's still worth a try if he feels that strongly about it. My point is - the part that appears to be obviously copied, which is just one line - (Hey (hey) You (you), I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend) - is also very damn close to the chorus of "Get Off My Cloud", which, if I were Avril's lawyer, I'd certainly bring up!....then again, Jagger/Richards certainly have the money and lawyers to go after her!)One of the main points of that article was Avril's lawyer saying that, while they don't intend to settle this out of court, they'd certainly look into seeing how much it may cost to defend themselves before making any decision. Tommy could wind up with a handsome hunk of change before this damn mess ever winds up in a courtroom, unless he goes after, let's say, royalties or publishing rights. If it goes to court, though, as Marv says above, the jury or judge is going to hear a wide range of varying (and contradictory) opinions by a range of musical experts....which will likely sway the jury from concluding this is a slam dunk one way or the other.If this happens, they'll try to look to other evidence such as the likelihood that Avril heard this song on the radio or anywhere else....and unless there's some sort of evidence that, let's say, Butch W. played it for her, let's face it - she was born after the song was released, and it was an (at best) very minor hit that wasn't really played on mainstream radio. I think it'll be a hard one to win....(Ironic that the chorus of a Rolling Stones song sounds so much like the 2 songs in question....James Brown could have sued them years ago for "The Last Time", which sounded very suspiciously like his "Maybe The Last Time") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvin Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Maybe the best part of all of this is that the uninitiated have finally discovered the Rubinoos. It's about time!Marv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneG Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Avril also has another song on that CD with the "hey, hey, you, you" phrasing. Maybe she's just stuck on it.Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollies65 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Actually 'Maybe The Last Time' is a traditional gospel tune and it is rumored that Mick and Keith used The Staple Singers version as their model for their version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I stand corrected, although I definitely remember reading somewhere that the Stones lifted most of the lyrics from the James Brown 1964 single "Maybe The Last Time", which he swiped from the Staples.To quote Keef R. - "And I didn't actually realize until after we'd written it because we'd been listening to this Staple Singers album for 10 months or so. You don't go out of your way to LIFT songs, but what you play is eventually the product of what you've heard before."On the other hand, the Staples' recording didn't list them as having written the song (an old gospel tune that was in public domain), which Brown did take credit for....so he could have sued the Stones, but probably would have then been exposed as a song thief himself in court. It appears that everyone "lifts" songs from everyone else....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poptopian cult member Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 It's true. I think the main problem is how exactly do you measure how much song A is like song B? Where's the line drawn that's the question!Where does it become copying?John O, if what you're quoting is true then what really matters is if you have a copyright.So the what about the "Bo Diddley beat"? Is every song that uses that beat going to have to account for it? and that C# to E thing, that's clearly the copyright owners of C# to E intellectual property? Tying the hands of artists will not improve matters. A lot of traditional song forms can be traced to Scottish hymns. So do we pay the Presbytarian church a "Protestant hymnal" tax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poptopian cult member Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Quoted wrong, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I think you can 'lift' four measures, and after that, you're downright stealin'! Kirk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzza Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Yeah... but four measures of what Kirk!!! Muzza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I guess I should have given the metric equivalent, also Kirk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 "John O, if what you're quoting is true then what really matters is if you have a copyright."Well, it's kinda difficult to sue anyone for stealing something that you feel belongs to (or was created by) you if your name isn't somehow legally attached to it, no??? My point above was, unless the Staples Singers could prove that Mick & Keef stole their arrangement, they really wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on as far as suing them, as the song itself was credited to "Public Domain" by the Staples. If Brown wanted to go after them about the tune or lyrics, however, he could point to his copyright or songwriting credit or whatever as being swiped...and my guess is, the Stones' lawyer would then point out that Brown himself swiped a Public Domain song and published/copyrighted it as his own.Based on the one article I've read, it appears that Avril's lawyer isn't going to hesitate to use "Get Off My Cloud" as a pre-Rubinoos precedent regarding th chorus of the song... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 On a more positive note, Tommy D. and the Rubinoos lawsuit made the Washington Post yesterday in the Entertainment section. I believe the last time they were mentioned in this paper was in a rather dismissive sentence in a review of an Elvis Costello concert in College Park, MD., where they opened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvin Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 On a more positive note, Tommy D. and the Rubinoos lawsuit made the Washington Post yesterday in the Entertainment section. I believe the last time they were mentioned in this paper was in a rather dismissive sentence in a review of an Elvis Costello concert in College Park, MD., where they opened. As I said, the Rubinoos are going to get some great publicity out of this, AND people will be trying to locate "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend."Marv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollies65 Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Anyone who saw the Rubinoos back in the late 70s and dismissed their music would be someone whose writings on music I would not be rushing to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Marshall Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Avril's in trouble with Chantal Kreviazuk too. Over a different song. Chantal is considering a lawsuit of her own, has written off Avril, and says she'll NEVER work with her again. A BAD week for stinky ol' Avril.Credibility though is likely NOT an issue with her little girl fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 "Anyone who saw the Rubinoos back in the late 70s and dismissed their music would be someone whose writings on music I would not be rushing to read."While I agree, I could also probably count on my fingers of one hand the number of rave reviews of unknown opening acts I've read over the years....the Post guy was there to cover Elvis The C, and made it obvious in his writeup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brioohs Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Avril may have no clue who the Rubes are but her co-writer surely knows. Dr. Luke was the producer of an album in the early 90s by The Party (made up of former latter-day Mouseketeers) that included a cover version of "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend." This tidbit of info was served up recently by a former manager of The Rubinoos (Marc Nathan). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raspbernie Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Avril may have no clue who the Rubes are but her co-writer surely knows. Dr. Luke was the producer of an album in the early 90s by The Party (made up of former latter-day Mouseketeers) that included a cover version of "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend."Oops! :-) I think this one's gonna get Tommy a paycheck.Bernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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