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"Live" CD Mixes

Eric Carmen

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"Tour photographer Gene Taylor was there with camera in hand, but just missed the moment. I'm sure if he got it, it would be as famous as that Iwo Jima flag raising photo. At least here on EC.COM!"

Dammit!!! That was truly one of the highlights of the whole LA HOB experience that night!...and I didn't even know who Cartman...er, Cartmill, was at the time! DVD footage of the strangling would have been such a bonus.....or a good still shot for the cover of the CD.....

As they say in "Flags of Our Fathers", a good photo can win a war.....likewise, a good Cartmill-being-strangled-by-Eric photo could really break a CD (Just think of how it would puzzle the critics reviewing it...."While the music on this new live CD is fabulous, I'm at a loss as to why the cover shows Eric Carmen choking an unidentified man. Anybody know the story behind THIS???...")

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First off I am NOT a baiter. As far as "pouncing on someone"? I've been the victim of that on several occasions recently. Can't remember "pouncing" on any so-called "targets" myself. You're reading way too much into my posts.

Can I post a legitimate question or comment without people thinking there is a "secret message" or "subliminal motive" behind it? Do all my comments have to be pre-screened or need some "seal of approval" for this message board? Does everyone have to agree 100% of the time with a few individual views or ideas?

There are several reasons I am curious about the Live CD?

This Concert was recorded over 1 year ago; does it really take that long to release a Live CD?

Everyone is raving how good the sound quality is going to be. It was a small club with a loud vocal crowd. It didn't sound like a acoustically perfect theatre at the show.

An Engineer who was there; mentioned there may be some post Concert "tinkering". Whatever that means?

That's why I posed the questions.


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OK, I'll bite. (Sorry, Bernie, we'll see how this goes). Does it take a year to release a live CD? No, we could have recorded it right at the show, and sold a CD to everyone as they were walking out the door. Of course, it would have sounded like crap, because there's no way to do that and properly have the time to mix seven vocalists and musicians playing twenty-one songs. And yes, the sound quality will be very good DESPITE the fact that the club is far from acoustically perfect. That credit goes ENTIRELY to Mark Linett, who through his many years of recording experience, has figured out ways to deal with some of those problems. And finally, you have never heard a "live" recording by anyone that did not include some "post-concert tinkering." We do that because we care. I've spent a month of my time listening to mixes and swapping comments with Mark so that we could make a record that would make this band proud. It may be the last Raspberries record we ever make. I wanted it to be a good one. ec

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I think it depends on the intention of said BAITING. If baiting exists to lure (no pun intended) self-righteousness or troublemaking out into the open, then baiting can be useful and potentially beneficial tool to a communicating community.

If baiting occurs to simply to draw a person into communication and subsequently level your own biases, criticisms, or prejudices at them, then it becomes distinctly counterproductive. ( Then there's baiting using nightcrawlers and the like, which is very worthwhile as long as you like eating fish.)

Let's look closer at the example above. Its clear in DonMand's query that there is an implicit criticism contained therein, and a false premise also. The question is posed in a manner that distinctly implies that there would be "something wrong" if the the time were taken to make the mix and concert as "clean" as humanly possible. But ofcourse there isn't. In fact, many very famous live albums have had all sorts of things engineered out of them but with the noble intention of making it more enjoyable for listeners. The Rolling Stones went back to London in 1970 and actually had additional guitar tracks added into their wonderful U.S. tour live album and classic, "Get Yer Ya Yas Out."

Baiting normally has an intrinsic "set-up" involved which makes it nearly impossible for the responder to repsond in a way that would not be criticized no matter what the response might be. Note the above example. No matter how the responder would respond it's a no win situation based upon how the question was posed and the implicit message that there is somehow something wrong with mixing for clarity, precision, and eveness.

If you ever feel you are being baited, think of the two completely opposite responses you might give to the question being posed and ask if it works out for you either way. If not, you are most likely being baited.

Donmand's response makes use of typical BAITER tactics when they are confronted, e.g. "does everyone have to agree all the time with a few individual views....etc". This is sad, one only has to examine the diverse content of EC.com to realize that this is not the case. In fact, free communication abounds even in the above semi-confrontation. If we are going to write freely towards others then we must have the expectation that others might write freely in our direction.

Questioning the motives or thoughts behind another's communication is reasonable. In fact, it often leads to greater clarity or a re- examination of the meaning of the communication.

Donmand nay not have been consciously baiting, however subconscious and subliminal communication should be taken seriously and we see the signs of such motivations throughout most types of communication.

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Eric is 100% correct about the "instant" recordings. They generally sound nothing like what you just heard there in the hall/arena with your own ears. The mixing is done on the fly, and it rarely comes off properly balanced. Some bands and their fans don't care...Raspberries obviously do! Even the recordings that come out shortly after the shows (within a week or so), and I'm thinking about the Black Crowes and The Who, to name 2 acts doing this now, have been "tinkered with."

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Agreed but I think Bernie was raising awareness that people communicate in this manner, sometimes for their own agendas, sometimes to stir sensitivities needlessly. Baiting is a national form of communication in these negative times we inhabit.

Our communications are infiltrated with baiting.

No one here ever been baited by "the big boss" at work? I certainly have.

A broader example:

CBS News: Mr. President, over 100 soldiers have died in Iraq this month. Yet, at a fundraiser last week you said we continue to make progress in Iraq. Is this the case?

Yikes. If the dimwit...er uh... I mean the President says there is, in fact, progress in this situation then immediately the 100 soldier deaths are thrown in his face as being very "anti-progress." If he says there is harldy any progress, then immediately the wider questions of what we are doing there and hope to accomplish and the legitimacy of the war are thrown in his face.

Why people often respond "off question" is most commonly an attempt simply to avoid baiting strategies.

Its very common and, IMO, people have used these forms of communications to stir sensitivities needlessly at times.

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Speaking only for myself, I am incredibly excited and thankful that there will be a "Live" Raspberries CD at all! After decades of wishing but not quite daring to hope - my fondest wish is about to come true!! Thank you for your incredible dedication to this project. There is NO doubt in my mind that I will be blown away and instantly transported back to the excitement and magic of the reunion shows the second I pop that CD into my BOSE. I'm thrilled that you are so happy with the results and I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts with us. May 2007 be the best year yet for Raspberries! :) - Margaret

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Recording is a lot like photography in a way. You want all the realism, but you want it to lean toward flattering, rather than unflattering. Very few people have their picture taken and choose the "unflattering" shot to send to their relatives. Recording technology simply gives us the opportunity to send you the "more flattering" photograph. It's still a very realistic picture of us. The "lighting" may be just a bit better. ec

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Donmand, I don't think you were baiting. I think the questions were legitimate and I respect Eric for answering them. That's the kind of give and take I would expect here.

I also agree with Eric, that the best live recordings have always been tinkered with. The best known example being the legendary live Kiss album.

There was a VH-1 special a few years back about the making of that "Kiss Alive" album that really opened me eyes, and mind, to live albums --- the simple fact is that nobody's going to like, or buy, a bad sounding recording (and after hearing clips on VH-1 of what "Kiss Alive" sounded like before the band tinkered with the recordings, I believe that the recording wouldn't have been the mega-hit it became without the band's admitted tinkering, which included overdubs and adding new instrumental parts, done with the intention of reproducing on record what the fans heard, or thought they heard, in concert).

Like the Kiss members said on the show, you want to put out a product that will sell.

I've been reading online in recent weeks Eddie Kramer's (Kiss, Led Zeppelin, Fotomaker) thoughts on ProTools and live recordings in various online interviews, and I've come to appreciate, of late, what a delicate process is involved with bringing the thrill of a live concert home via a recording. It's a major task, and I'm glad Mark Linett is involved with Raspberries in doing this CD. I'm looking forward to the final product.

Don :)

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Gene said:

Even the great Ansel Adams didn't shoot and print and show us a photo of the world exactly as it was. He showed the image as he had seen it in his mind's eye.


You're an Ansel Adams fan? My husband and I are too! We have several prints of his throughout our house! I'm guessing that you are shutterbug like my husband is. Give him a camera and a box of film and he goes crazy! :blink:

HT from Mo

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Well, since this thread has covered everything from finished live cd mixes :) to baiting and tinkering :( I noticed that somebody else registered at Raspberriesmyspace as 'Kirk', but with a lower case 'k'. His pic shows him standing over dead game holding a rifle :angry: Should anyone get an objectionable email or see a strange posting, please let me know :)

The "real" Kirk.

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chris hess said:

a good example..wings over america..in "band on the run",live at the concerts.denny laine played that part on his dbl. neck (the 12 string part)however on the recording on that album,it's an acoustic being played..even paul did some tinkering!!lol,chris

That sounds like an electric 12 string not an acoustic to my ears on the WOA version.

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I'm really excited for this live version, mainly because there are so many inferior live bootleg Raspberries recordings out there that don't do the performance justice.

While over the last 30 years there have been a lot of bad live recordings, there have been several that come to my mind that are much better than the sterile studio recording, just like the classic "Live Kiss" album previously mentioned.

I could rest my case simply with "Freebird". Another example is I think everything on Cheap Trick's Live at Budokan album blows out every track on the studio version. Most people haven't even heard the studio version of "Surrender" and it doesn't come close to the more familiar live cut.

Frampton did pretty well too with his little 76' live album.

Live recordings to me just work better for some type of artists than others. EG: Hearing Tony Bennett recorded live or studio, isn't going to be a huge difference to me. They both would be solid I'm sure, but no big difference.

The Raspberries, if there ever was a style of music that should be heard live, this is it. I'm excited about the mixing talent combined with today's technology.

The fidelity sounds like it will be great, and I'm even excited to re-experience the 'dubs adding to the live sound.

I only saw the very first reunion concert Thanksgiving weekend in Cleveland and left speechless. By all accounts they got nothing but better, which I can barely grasp the possibility of..

Though I loved the Beatles at the Hollywood Bowl cd, it was more to experience what it would be like to be there, but the recording is pretty thin and weak. In fact even the performance was iffy on some cuts since they can't hear themselves.

This Raspberries project is quite exciting, and Eric's enthusiasm comes through in his posts.

Color me pumped!


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