American Idol Thoughts

[Eric Carmen]

MAM, Did you see and hear Sara Evans at the CMA's? It was truly one of the worst vocal performances I have ever heard. About five minutes later she won "Female Vocalist of theYear"! Unbelievable! ec

[aggiesjc]

Ah, Ted, I'm with you on this!

[MAM]

Eric,

Yes, I saw the performance and I saw her win the award. Incredible! I've heard a few of her studio performances and in the studio setting she sounded great. Now I'm wondering if it's all Antares Autotune or Melodyne everytime someone sings well. Someone told me Keith Urban was on that night too, and he supposedly didn't sound very good. What a shame. They must have had REALLY crappy monitors that night.

[oldblue]

In reference to Ira's earlier question re. Meatloaf: Yes, there was a time when the guy was far more than just a Steinman studio creation. However, his is also a cautionary tale of what the expectations of the industry can do to those who are ill-prepared. The first "Bat Out of Hell" tour in the 70's was apparently one of those never-ending, multi-month marathons of travel and performing. I saw Meatloaf perform at the beginning of the tour and again 4 months later. The first was as impressive a performance as I had ever seen up to that time - the voice was ridiculously strong and right on pitch, and the onstage demeanor from Meatloaf was so forceful it was almost scary. In a sense, it was nearly as incredible as the shows Springsteen was doing at the time. It was amazing that a guy of Meatloaf's size and weight could deliver such a active, dynamic performance - but keeping up the standard night after night would prove difficult. Four months later he was struggling to hit the high notes, and was obviously wiped out physically. Nearly a decade later my friend took me to see Meatloaf one more time, and at that point he had a certain following that would have cheered him on whatever he did, but I couldn't help but feel sorry for the guy, because at that point his performance was downright embarrasing. It's a damn shame that performers often feel the need to burn themselves out in order to advance their art and sell product. With a little bit of pacing and more realistic expectations (both personal and corporate), this guy couild have been much more effective for much longer.

[Paulie Mississippi]

I've never seen Meat live, but from video and audio you can tell that a magic seems to happen when he gets with Steinman... and for all the power and such that was early Meat Loaf; I think the bulk of the magic comes from Jim Steinman.

I've long been impressed with the sheer magnitude of his compositions; not that they are necessarily the absolute best lyrically (although I find an interestingly slanted intelligence to his words) or the music, which he has a tendency to "repeat"... (Listen sometime to the openings of "Holding Out For a Hero" and "Stark Raving Love")... There just is a chemistry or something to his compositions and their subsequent recordings.

Part of that, I'm pretty sure, is due to the hands on nature of his productions. After a handful of notes or a few words you know this is Steinman... whether it was Celene Dion or Air Supply... Barry Mannilow or Meat Loaf... He seems to be in control to the point of hand choosing his own musicians (and for acts like Mannilow or Streisand who don't have a famous "band" that is fine...)

The only act that I'm aware of that he couldn't work with; and again it's probably because he couldn't force Roy Bittan and Todd Rundgren on them; was Def Leppard. Hysteria (I think it was) was originally to be produced by Steinman but there was such a rift between band and producer that he was fired or quit (maybe both) and all the tapes from those sessions were supposedly destroyed! Based on the popularity of Leppard and that album, it may have been the right way to go; but I'd have loved to seen the result of Jim's productions of a band that wasn't his "house band"...

As for Meat Loaf; musically he seems to wander when not associated with Steinman; and God knows the only true successes he's had as a recording artist are those under Jim's care...

[seattlesteve]

There was a time in college, when I took hell for some of thhe music I liked, besides Eric Carmen, I liked Queen, and Meat Loaf.

I think it was 1977 and I went to a house off campus, actually for my birthday, and they were playing the Bat Out Of Hell album. I immediately was drawn to the addicting melodies, the voice, and the grand scope of the compositions and went to the turn table with my red cup of cheap keg beer to see who this was. Who the hell is Meat Loaf?

Little label out of Cleveland finally bit on the Steinman-Meat team, and even today it's the third best selling album in the history of the world. It's not smoke and mirrors.

The compositions are obviously solid. I last saw Meat Loaf on his comeback tour for Bat Out Of Hell 2 tour, 10 + years ago, as oldblue said, his voice was ridiculously strong and forceful. He lost it in the 80's and he admitted it. In fact Steinmans album that contained Rock n Roll Dreams Come True, was supposed to be the next Meat Loaf album way back when but he lost his voice, understandable when you sing that hard.

They won a deserving grammy for the booh2 album. He literally was holed up in surburbia coaching a softball game when he got word that Steinman was willing to work with him again and had some songs.

I suspect that on Idol, the people in the green roon were overserved, and that Meat still has it. He's playing Cleveland in September and I'm sure it will sell out.

BTW. Unless Eric wants to put it out (and he should) I've said from day one the second best singer for Devil would be Meat Loaf. It's the best Steinman song Steinman didn't write.

There is a very good drama-documentary movie on VH-1 that chronicles the love-hate relationship of Steinman-Meat Loaf. They truly are a walking example of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Color me a fan...

[Tony Cartmill]

With Steinman = Meatloaf

Without Steinman = Beef Jerky?

[Paulie Mississippi]

[AnneG]

I saw Meatloaf ~ 1981 at college. It was....bad. He actually performed a few songs well, but it quickly went downhill. My friend still laughs hysterically over having to jump back from the stage when Meatloaf decided he'd shake his sweat all over us.

To top it off, I was scolded by the 10 year old boy I babysat (he, of course, wanted to be a rock star). I should have listened to him, but it was a few months before he forgave me.

Anne

[pierson]

Eric Carmen said:

By saying what he did, he made Taylor's fans think he had it wrapped up, and Katherine's fans think she was trailing. What better way to get Kat's fans to light up the phone lines. I think Katherine is the next American Idol. ec

EC,

i actually think Simon was honest when he said he thought Taylor "won"... i think he based it on the vocal performances that night... after Kat did "Over The Rainbow" he said they were tied... but I think he thought Taylor's last song was stronger... although i agree with you about Simon probably siding w/ Kat as the artist he would prefer to sign-- it doesn't mean she had what it took to win that night w/ the voters; Simon knows there's a lot of mid-western & southern voters... i think he knew the reality check...

Taylor is proving the old non-rule, that it isn't so OBVIOUS as to who has what it takes to be a pop star... or at least make a hit record or be a successful singer/performer.... you were absolutely spot-on to point out Michael McDonald & Joe Cocker...

Kat is a wee bit more difficult to turn into pop star, only insofar as she's more sophisticated and adult... in a day and age where there ain't singers like Dusty Springfield or Dionne Warwick, or even Linda Ronstadt it's a tough deal. (Faith Hill is a much more slick country-crossover pop thing whereas Linda was pop/rock with a tinge of country a la The Eagles. Trying to make Kat do such a thing feels forced. I see her more as a torch singer.)

By the way, the Bacharach medley on Idol was absolutely dreadful-- proves how hard it is to sing those songs... almost everyone flattened the nuances... ugh... i felt Burt's pain....

[Tony Cartmill]

pierson said:

Faith Hill is a much more slick country-crossover pop thing whereas Linda was pop/rock with a tinge of country a la The Eagles. Trying to make Kat do such a thing feels forced. I see her more as a torch singer.

Faith Hill is a true talent! But with hits like the cringe inducing "This Kiss" and "The Way You Love Me", I find it hard to take her seriously sometimes. "Just Breathe" is Faith at her best.

McPhee got a crash course in style and stage presence, and she was hit and miss in that department. But her talent and beauty are there. A little more training with the right teacher (plus a few weeks working out with a personal trainer) and Kat will be just fine in her search for a pop music niche...As long as good songs find their way to her and her parasites...errr, handlers.

A little phone call from Eric to her producers about his catalogue of great songs would be mutually beneficial to both parties...Cha-ching!

[MAM]

Tony,

have you ever listened to early Faith Hill, say 1994? I consider that her best stuff. I felt she had an original sound at that time. By 1997, they were trying to turn her into the next Shania. I'm not saying she isn't good at what she's doing, but these ears prefer her earlier stuff.

[Tony Cartmill]

I didn't know of Faith till that Breathe song.

Did the same chick writer write both "This Kiss" and "The Way You Love Me"? That's what I heard. If true, I need to cyber-slap her for irritating me with her talent.

[Tony Cartmill]

Tony Cartmill said:

With Steinman = Meatloaf

Without Steinman = Beef Jerky?

On second thought, Without Steinman, he's more like a Sloppy Joe...

[Paulie Mississippi]

They were replaying some CMT awards show this morning on CMT (duh) and Jeff Foxworthy was hosting. He's poking fun at some of the singers and said that Tim McGraw's next single would be... "I Might Be Faith's Husband, But Her Bottom Is Her Better Half."

[seattlesteve]

I thought Taylor would win, I thought he should win, I was rooting for him to win, and he did.

If I had to stake my equity and bank roll somebody with my own money though, in hopes of an roi at some point, I hate to say it, but it would be on Kat. As I like to say in real estate investments, she has the right things wrong, things that can be corrected.

Right or wrong I'd turn her over to someone like Eric and say, bring me cd sales and tour receipts, while personally I'd be sipping on a cocktail with a bluesy Taylor Hicks cd on in my living room.

[AnniekNY]

I have had the displeasure of seeing Meatloaf live at Radio City Music Hall a few years ago... I really like the albums with Jim Steinman and I do believe it was the second time I had seen him live (the first time was at Rockland Community College - don't remember him but remember Karla Bonoff REALLY well....that chick had pipes!)

BUT...lord, that was the second worst concert I have ever seen....pitchy, breathless, overly-dramatic.

(First place goes to Van Halen with David Lee Roth at Naussau Coliseum in Long Island...they were drunk, stoned, out of synch and stupid. Eddie ran up a stack of amps, fell, and broke the neck of his guitar....which caused David to say "everybody clap and sing...The Cradle...The cradle will ROCK..." for 20 minutes straight.)

Never let it be said that Eric demanding musical perfection wasn't warranted. How many of us have plunked down hard earned dinero to be pissed on by an irresponsible band we loved?

And Steve...you haven't gotten crap until you play "Radio Ga Ga" (by Queen for everyone else) in an upstate New York redneck bar on a jukebox. Them cowtippers pulled the plug......!!!!!!

[Tony Cartmill]

Ah, Karla Bonoff! Her great ballad, "Wild Heart Of The Young" will always be the unofficial love song of "The Wonder Years." I'll always remember when I heard it first at the end of an episode where Winnie and Kevin are make-up kissing in the parking lot of the local diner...Slow camera pan out and up with that song playing and the passion of young love on display. Great song! Great fit to the scene.

"I love you like I've never loved another,

With the wild heart of the young.

But it took until now to uncover,

Oh, if I'd only known it then,

Oh, if I'd only known it then..."

[Eric Carmen]

I don't like "This Kiss." I LOVE "This Kiss." There are two versions. The country version with a lot of pedal steel guitar and the pop version without it. The pop version is absolutely great! I thought the lyric was terrific and clever. I honestly can't imagine how Faith could have sung it any better. Every nuance of her vocal on that tune is perfect. I don't like "The Way You Love Me" nearly as much (I think it's those annoying vocoder background vocals). Clever idea, but it doesn't send me. On the other hand "Cry" gives me chills every time I hear it. That one would have been a GREAT choice for Katherine. I chose Faith as a role model for Katherine not for her country sensibilities but for her POP sensibilities. I think Katherine may have lost the competition because she aspires to be Whitney and she's not there yet. Nobody really cares about all the fancy stuff. Most of us just find it tedious. As a songwriter, the nicest thing a singer can do for me is stick to the notes I wrote. I chose each one for a very good reason and if you knew better than me you'd be singing a song YOU wrote! ec

[pierson]

Eric Carmen said:

I chose Faith as a role model for Katherine not for her country sensibilities but for her POP sensibilities. I think Katherine may have lost the competition because she aspires to be Whitney and she's not there yet. ec

of all the times i watched it this season (which was about 75%), i never sensed a big "Whitney" angle with her... although, the show does throw them into that kind of set up from time to time...

I think of her more like Sade sans the jazz stuff... her personality is less glitzy than someone like Faith Hill... she's more urban/ metropolitan.... If there was a current country-esque female role model I might choose, I'd go with Shelby Lynne or Mandy Barnett... there's more depth to them...

[Eric Carmen]

I love Shelby Lynne but I don't sense that kind of angst in Katherine. I don't think she can pull off Shelby Lynne and be authentic. Unfortunately, when people think of "pop" these days, it's usually associated with music for the Disney set. I don't think Katherine looks authentic doing R&B stuff. It ends up looking more like someone on Broadway doing "Bess You Is My Woman." Contemporary country is where pop music went when what used to be known as top "40" turned into urban/hip-hop. I don't think Kat should be a "country" singer, but, to me, she has more in common with Martina McBride and Shania Twain and Faith Hill than she does with Mariah and Whitney and the "urban" female vocalists. By the way, I thought Mandissa (?) blew ALL of them away during that lame medley of Burt Bacharach hits. She's the one that can REALLY sing! Just doesn't have that "idol" look. She did Aretha proud on "I Say A Little Prayer." ec

[Tony Cartmill]

Eric, you can have "This Kiss". The chorus makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, braid itself and pull till it hurts...

And not in a good way...

[Billy]

Getting back to the Clay Aiken/Bobby Sherman deal -- I thought it was K.D.Lang!

[darlene]

If *that* bothers you, just wait till the new baby is belting it out at 4 o'clock in the morning!

--Darlene

[Tony Cartmill]

Good point Darlene!