Clive is still, well, Clive :-)

[Tom]

Eric...love the insiders perspective on the buisness. Your posts bring to life the reality of just how nasty it can be.

I wonder if I had a child who was a talented artist if I would want them to go through this much trauma.

[Gene]

If the record biz folks take over Hollywood I can hear it now, "Mr. Clooney, we're paying you $10,000,000 for your next movie. I know you're excited, as we are. However, there will be some production costs, and of course advertising, and some little plastic novelties we'll need to put on store shelves. Mr. Clooney, I know you love being a star and it is a wonderful career to have, but you'll owe us just over $200,000,000 after this movie. Pay it or you'll be so tied up with our lawyers you'll never work in this town again."

[raspathens]

As we know, The Beatles with Apple and Sinatra with Reprise attempted to circumvent this system with their own labels. The idea was to create an "artist's label". Sure, while these two could still sell records under their new label, the others that were signed caused significant financial problems. While I do believe the system is broken, I just want to point out that the "logical solution" was tried before by the two biggest names in show business for the last century and their efforts failed. So, what can be done?

[Bessieboo]

That reminds me of what I was thinking a few days ago. Some sort of United Artist record/production company- Not today's UA but the *idea* when it was started "The Society aimed to preserve the rights of independent producers in an industry overwhelmingly controlled by the studio system".

A few of the really big boys -McCartney, Celine Oprah who ever... come together for the greater good and create a Utopian co-operative record/production company .

Would it be viable or are the wiseguys too involved to allow more players on the field?

[frankenberrie]

The artists you mentioned have not much interest in things like that, Paul knows too well how much money can get thrown away too fast thanks to Apple's mismanagement. Madonna has her own label, and signed a number of acts like Hole & Alanis Morissette, but it's a subsidiary of a major. Unfortunately, a large part of what I mentioned above with CDs killing the indies, it also destroyed most of the independent distributors at the same time. There used to be these wonderful places called "One-Stops" which were small distributors all over the USA. These distributors used to deal with record stores, and as the name implied, you could get everything from posters to Lps to 8 tracks for your independent record store. This whole network has been dismantled in the past 15 years, Thanks to chains like Tower, Walmart, FYE, Best Buy, etc. Until there is a genuine hit from a song available only thru the internet, the majors will keep a stranglehold on everything.

And Gene, the film industry is all about getting as much for free as possible. Sure they pay the star, and director, but that's about it, everybody else gets scale. Last year, I got a call from Paramount. I am a writer for a number of wrestling magazines, and they were trying to locate a certain wrestler for a role in the film "Nacho Libre". He was a masked wrestler, however, and they could not figure out who he was or how to contact him. Meanwhile, I made several suggestions, including using Fray Tormenta and Silver King in the film, and both were in it. I located the guy they wanted within 48 hours, spoke to him, hell, he even LIVES in Hollywood:)and could have been on the lot in an hour! They were unwilling to pay me anything for my efforts. I offered that for a $500 fee I would be available to them at any time, and would throw my phone book open, help them in anyway, etc. No dice. They made over 50 calls to me in a 10 day period, trying to get the info for free. They kept asking just to give them the number, but I'm not stupid. No Money, No info. Well, they were never able to find the guy, who they had written the role of the priest specifically for. Instead, they used my freely given idea of Fray Tormenta in the priest role. Now bear in mind, this was a film directed by Jared Hess(Napolean Dynamite) and starring Jack Black. I pegged the budget in the first phone call at a minimum of $20 million. It wound up being a $35 million dollar film, and they wouldn't give me a lousy $500! Pretty dumb, if you ask me. They were only willing to pay this guy union scale, and illegally wanted him to pay me a % from his check, which is against union rules. So there you go, Gene, they are just as filthy in their dealings. Maybe worse. I'm reading Hollywood Babylon by Kenneth Anger right now, and Hollywood was dirty from day 1. There's even a filmstrip pathway in Hollywood now, behind the Kodak theater. If you follow it to the end, it says this is how you become a star. At the end of the trail, with a great view of the Hollywood sign, is a stone carved "Casting Couch"! And a good % of movie budgets now is provided by product placements. When they are writing scripts now, they try to find ways to work in eating, billboards and stores, all of which pay for the ads in the film. The scenario you put forward does even exist, Gene. An actor with a checkered past, like Robert Downey had to basically pay his way back in after his drug problems, his contracts were written that if he f***ed up, he would be held responsible for reshoots and the entire cost of production.

[Paulie Mississippi]

frankenberrie, though my knowledge is just that of a fan and a person who has watched and read too much I have to agree with what you say about the extra production costs. There is little that you see on screen, aside from the actual people, that are paid for. Companies willingly allow (and sometimes bid for the right) for their product to be seen in the films! If you ever watch the credits roll at the end of a film you'll see a huge list of companies who provided either product or cash scroll across the screen.

And of course I hearken back to one of the most famous product placement blunders of all time... when M & M's chose to not allow ET to enjoy their little candies... and Reese's created "Reeses Pieces" just for them to use in the movie... and for years all the tykes who loved ET loved Reeses Pieces... and it still has a place on the shelf of your local convenience store today all because M & M's said "No." to a product placement.

[HT from Mo]

WOW! Interesting reading gentlemen!

Frankenberrie,

I'm sure you have many other stories to tell about the entertainment biz. Any others?

Thanks for the insight.

HT

[Tony Cartmill]

Eric did a great job on his Clive novella. I like the way he broke it up into several posts to give the reader a pause to regroup...

Enjoy your strangulation, Tommy. It's not so bad...if you survive.

[Bessieboo]

I have a feeling you guys like that kind of thing

[Tony Cartmill]

Well, Bessie, If you want to get touched by the Music Master, some of us who aren't hot chicks with bodacious ta-tas sometimes have to resort to Plan B.

[Ecstasy]

I'm backing away slowly because when lightning strikes you.....

[Lew Bundles]

Tommy Tunes...There is not enough "Blistex" in this world to cover all the chapped lips generated from this butt kissing session...

[hollies65]

Well it did turn into a bit of a love fest....that's ok..it was great slice Eric shared. As for Tommy Tunes I think it was obvious in the posts after his initial post that it was nothing more than a misunderstanding of his post. No blood no foul. Now...back to the music!

[frankenberrie]

Hi Ht,

Yeah I got a million of em, I have been involved in entertainment related businesses since 18, when I started as a roadie for the Dead Boys. Grew up in the NYC punk scene. Spent 4 years as a roadie, then started a bunch of bands for 10-12 years, touring all over the USA, with many stories I can't let my girlfriend read;). Along the way got to jam with some heroes like Joe Walsh, Cheetah Chrome & Albert Bouchard. Slash was a fan of my band, and wears a skulls tshirt in the Sweet Child video. Basically, the only bands I really like but never met are the Raspberries & the Kinks! After that, started my own antiques biz, and then morphed into a writer/photographer. I'm now working on a comic book based on wrestling. We are viewed as authorities on the Mexican style of wrestling, and have gotten to travel all over Mexico for the past 10 years in the company of the biggest stars in that field. And I'm finally starting to record again. Here's my myspace link, there's a few of my articles there, I'm going to post my Raspberries story from BB Kings this week. Send me friends requests, I'll add anybody from this board! Glad you enjoyed the posts, it was fun & interesting to read everything on this thread. I rarely have time to post, but do enjoy this site more than most. I wanted to make up for my bitching over the cd/dvd deal:) Later guys.

http://www.myspace.com/nuclearjackalope

[hollies65]

Ha!Frankenberries, Jeff Halmagy lived across the street from me in Mentor.[Jeff Magnum,Dead Boys]. Was a scene maker in the Cleve-Akron late 70s Punk scene [ubu,Pagan,Giraffes,Rubber City Rebels].I would not be surprised if we've met somewhere back then[if you were in the NE Ohio area scene...I made it to NYC only 3 times back then.] I too enjoyed your posts.

[Eric Carmen]

The reason I broke it into little sections is because every time I try to write anything longer, it won't post. ec

[frankenberrie]

Ha, yeah I know Jeff pretty well! You knew him when he still had the hair down to his ass:) I was born & raised within 10 miles of NYC, and only made it to Ohio when touring in the 80s. The Akron area used to be a great source for rare collectibles pre eEbay! Anyway, the Raspberries story is now on my myspace!

Hey Eric, I see you're back, post some more of your stories now!!!

[hollies65]

Ha! Yep that long ass hair.Ha.

[aussietime]

the book summary is still interesting even in sections

[Brian Michael Page]

The reason I broke it into little sections is because every time I try to write anything longer, it won't post. ec

But that's ok, Eric, you got it all in.

BMP

[snazz123]

Little pieces. Big pieces. It doesn't matter! Eric, thanks for your keen insights into the "behind the scenes" of Clive and associated labels. I've followed his career for years but your summation of the arc of his career was great.

Just a quick Clive story of my own. I was in NYC on business and was walking on 57th, I believe, and straight in front of me was a guy struggling with his briefcase. I realized it was Clive and I said, "Hi Mr. Davis. It is nice to see you!" I'm sure he wondered "Who the hell is this guy." I then realized we were right in front of Arista Records and that Mr. Davis was trying to open the door. I opened the door for him and wished him a good day. As the door shut I had another thought so I opened the door to see a security guard at his post and Mr. Davis still struggling with his briefcase. I said, "Oh, Mr. Davis. I just want to say that I've followed your career for years and I want to congratulate you on your being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. You deserve it!" He said, "Thank you" and I left.

SNazz123

[LostControl]

I know what Eric means ... no one likes to spend time writing out something thoughtful (and sometimes even witty!) to hit the 'send' button, and have the whole thing disappear. It's happened too many times to count!

Better to keep the posts short, so that when the inevitable loss occurs, you're not seriously considering tossing your monitor through the closest window.

The posts were all amazing insight into the 'biz'. I see why lawyers are important in LA.

[raspathens]

Expressions of appreciation and civility are not ass kissing. Think about what we would all be missing if not for those who contribute to this site. When someone does something wonderful for other people in a selfless way (which is rare) I think that it ought to be pointed out. The great thing we all have in common is that we all dig this music. There is an unspoken kinship here that's just great.

[Tony Cartmill]

The ice must be melting in Canada! Lost Control has emerged from her hibernation cave to post and go catch some salmon in her teeth at the nearby stream!

[Raspyrock]

I don't think Eric is wasting time on here. Heck, one day he may write a song about the postings on here. You just never know.