Clive is still, well, Clive :-)

[TOMMY TUNES]

Thanks Annie, thanks Paulie...

[TOMMY TUNES]

Let me say this....I enjoyed reading Eric's take on Clive Davies as much as anything I've ever read on this board.I mean it really only took a couple of mins to read and was laid out perfectly.I post at a bunch of musical hipster sites and I sure as hell never had someone who actually recorded for Clive lay it out like that.If you love records you had to love Eric's post.

I concur.

[Raspbernie]

Here's another word you might look up, Tommy:

a·pol·o·gy [uh-pol-uh-jee] –noun,

A written or spoken expression of one's regret, remorse, or sorrow for having insulted, failed, injured, or wronged another.

Bernie

[marvin]

but what if you're NOT the songwriter? How the hell do you make money these days? Touring?!

Annie there are many, many artists who are not songwriters, who have been successful or are successful. In pop music, you can go back to Sinatra and Elvis as examples. In Elvis' case he had a shrewd manager in Colonel Tom Parker, who who got every penny for Elvis, albeit probably not as much as he should have. Elvis made his money on tours, record sales, merchandise, movies, etc. It probably wasn't until the 1950's and Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly, when the songwriter and the singer joined as one.

The trend isn't as obvious today, as most singers understand the benefit ($$$) of also being the sonwriter.

Marv

p.s. I should add that Parker even used a bit of legal arm-twisting to put Elvis down as a co-writer on some songs ("Love Me Tender") to benefit Elvis. In reality, Elvis probably didn't write a note of the song.

[TOMMY TUNES]

Thanks Bernie. That's a great word. Either before or after reading that word I suggest all parties involved should check out the "Continue the Story" thread and Eric's earlier posts on this thread to see the obvious similarity in posting style and therefore the blatant misinterpretation of my post. Certainly there is no similarity in content as Eric's posts on this thread were IMHO interesting, coherent, intelligent and insightful. The posts on "Continue the Story" while sometimes interesting and intelligent are rarely coherent or insightful (BTW I include my own posts on that thread in my criticism). But to not see the similarity if the style and to think there was maliciousness in my posts is incorrect. While I can truly understand Eric's not having read the "Continue the Story" thread and therefore his misinterpretation of my intent I am dissapointed at the moderator's lack of faniliarity with that thread and the verbal abuse on this poster. Oh well. No big deal. This really isn't that important in the grand scheme of life. I've got bigger problems perhaps you do too. Let's move on.

[raspathens]

Eric : Your insights and participation are deeply appreciated. Sometimes when I am soaring to your music and the realization hits me that I actually have a vehicle to hear your thoughts, that I was able to hear you perform live again and that it's actually you, I can't put into words the sense of appreciation I have. I'm sure that a vast majority of posters feel that way.

[HT from Mo]

Eric,

I REALLY hope you don't feel you've wasted your time sharing your amazing insights here with us!! I'll bet most of us, at least I know I have never had a clue about what really goes on behind the scenes of the music industry..I'm amazed ... and it's incredible to read this all from someone who's actually LIVED the tale. THANK YOU !!! Marlene

Ditto for me! I too live in a perfect suburban world and enjoy Eric Carmen/Raspberries music so much. I had no clue that the industry was indeed so cutthroat and so focused on the almighty dollar that it's the artist that actually gets in the way and is on the losing end of the deal. Thank you so much for sharing your insight on this particular topic! Your time is not wasted - IMHO. We all(maybe the exception of one or two) enjoy and relish your posts! I look forward to reading more about your experiences in the music industry.

A million thanks!

Hugs,

HT

[raspathens]

Tommie : Don't go after Bernie now. We've got a free site here that gives us all a lot of benefit and fun. Maybe I'm a little dense, but I didn't understand your last post. For God's sake man, apologize!!!

[hollies65]

In any case I see Tommy Tunes meant no malice in his post and the board has responded to Eric's post hoping he was not wasting his time with his Clive post with a resounding "Keep em coming Eric!".

[Eric Carmen]

My little history was just the very tip of a GARGANTUAN ICEBERG! If you'd like to learn a lot more about the inner workings of the music biz, Clive, Columbia etc., I suggest you get a copy of "Hit Men" by Fredric Dannen, published by Random House. It's every bit as juicy and informative. The music biz is a real hornet's nest of egomaniacs, wannabes, has-beens, parasites and ruthless cutthroats. In recent years, the execs harbored such disdain for artists that they could barely conceal it. They came to believe they could break anyone they wanted to, so artists were just disposable vehicles for moneymaking. They held the power and they abused it. I think that's been a huge contributing factor in the decline of the quality of music. The execs believed it was all about THEM. None of them were looking for the next Beatles or Eagles. They were just looking for a quick buck. Hence, charts dominated by rap acts dropping the f bomb every 30 seconds, selling a million records but no one will go to see them in concert. And a thousand bands that all sound like Nickelback or Pearl Jam and all suck, being hyped into infinity for one record and then.....gone! ec

[HT from Mo]

What was the worst case you witnessed(aside from your own personal experience) of the artist being ramrodded, abused,etc? I know we could all go buy the book you suggested but we all love to hear your about your experiences!

HT

[hollies65]

Go read the story of Badfinger.

[marlene]

Thanks, Eric ! Anyone else think this is a great suggestion for "Eric's Book Club" !?

(You're right, HT, it could never replace Eric's posts !!)

[marvin]

Oh there's a ton of books out there, "Hit Men" being just one of the many, that illustrates what a wonderful 'business' the music industry is. Check out any one of the many on Motown.

Marv

[Eric Carmen]

One of the reasons I loved "Hit Men" was that I knew just about everyone in it. There was an entire chapter on the law firm that represented me and just about everyone else in the music biz (Bruce, Madonna, Clive, Donny Ienner, Hall and Oates, etc.) that was a revelation. ec

[darlene]

Originally posted by Eric:

Quote:

And with all due respect, he's like the cockroach after the proverbial atomic bomb

That is about the most hilarious and wittiest statement I've ever seen/heard.

Mr. Carmen, you truly have the perfect way with words!

But it's so true. I did a report on insects in junior high, and cockroaches and silverfish (a relative) are truly prehistoric--they survived the proverbial atom bomb.

Eric, your command of language is AMAZING!!!!

Now, GO WRITE SOME LYRICS!!!!

--Darlene

[Ecstasy]

What I'm still too dense to get here (I guess I just don't understand maliciousness) is: If you attack and wipe out all of your talent/artists, who is it you plan on making money off of in the longrun? It just doesn't sound like "good business" to me. There doesn't appear to be any logic. Eric, how do you NOT lose your mind in all of this when your goal is the quality of the music?

[seattlesteve]

Great posts Eric. I love the behind the scenes scoop, which is probably obvious by the questions I post.

Seattle Steve

[Laura]

Eric- I loved reading the post from your perspective about Clive and the music business. It's amazing to me that after reading your experiences and about the record industry in general, that anyone would want to be in the business. Amazing that anyone survives to tell the story.

[MAM]

What I'm still too dense to get here (I guess I just don't understand maliciousness) is: If you attack and wipe out all of your talent/artists, who is it you plan on making money off of in the longrun? It just doesn't sound like "good business" to me. There doesn't appear to be any logic.

That's one of the problems, if not THE problem. They make superstars (if only for one record) out of "karaoke kings & queens". Any of us who are performing musicians know exactly what I mean. I see it almost every weekend. "Hey, can I come up & do a song? I sound just like the dude in Oasis!" or "I'm the next Patsy Cline!" Uh-huh, Oh boy, I can't wait. Now bear in mind, I don't claim to be an expert or that my voice or songwriting even comes close to Macca or Eric or anybody else. If it did, maybe I wouldn't be a weekend warrior. (though it has made my mortgage payments alot easier for 30 plus years)But I DO have mass amounts of experience, and I feel I can tell who has the goods & who doesn't. In todays society, "having the goods" in the vocal or songwriting department doesn't hold that much weight anymore. All you have to do is look good wearing as little as possible and as an alternate, have really cool ripped jeans and a cowboy hat. Once in a while you find someone who can REALLY sing/perform/entertain AND write,etc. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they have what it takes to be the next Beatles/Elvis/Sinatra/Carmichael/Charles etc. In the American Idol world they're a dime a dozen. They'll never find another McCartney or Lennon or Bacharach on that show. They're looking for someone who will be the next One Hit Wonder, cash in on that and move on to the next person that they, and the all knowing viewers claim to be a "star".

Boy, have I been getting long winded lately or what? Geeez ....

[Don_Krider]

Eric, your comments "from the inside" on the music industry are fascinating, honest and refreshing to read. You have a story to tell and I'm glad you're telling it. It's the kind of warning kids like Kelly Clarkson need before they sign the contracts.

In fact, I think you could write a book to educate future musicians on the ins and outs of the industry. Just call it, "Inside Story".

Really enjoying your posts.

Don Krider

[Paulie Mississippi]

It's not even just the "karaoke kings & queens" but more those who have a certain "look" who can carry a manufactured tune in a manufactured bucket.

[HT from Mo]

It's not even just the "karaoke kings & queens" but more those who have a certain "look" who can carry a manufactured tune in a manufactured bucket.

I agree Paulie! So what if they can't sing, gosh they look sooo cool in that cowboy hat and that pair of ripped jeans! Then the next "one" they see and it's repeated all over again.

HT

[Raspbernie]

Tommy,

Regardless of what the "Continue the Strory" thread is, the comment you made was unquestionably irrelevant.

Bernie

[frankenberrie]

As a veteran of the rock wars. let me chime in my .02! 1st off, today, with all the tone modulators & studio effects & hired songwriters/musicians, almost anyone can be made to sound good. I saw a show on MTV with Ashlee Simpson's audition, and the producer said to her she had the certain level of mediocrity he could work with and make her a star. The business now is so based on image and looks, talent means nothing.

2ndly, be prepared to sell your ass. Literally. My band had 2 chances to get a deal. One was with Elektra. A guy I knew from the club scene, very gay, started at Elektra as a mailroom clerk. Within a year, he was in the A&R division. How? Sex. This same guy signed Metallica a couple years later. He used to invite me to his office, and said we could relax and listen to my LP there, I said no thanks, sorry. 2nd chance at another label, this time an older very plain woman about twice my age repeatedly came on to me with promises of helping the band. In retrospect, maybe I should have said yes to her:) I saw Madonna a few times in clubs, in the early days. She had to have a verboten form of sex with numerous black producers to get her deal, and it was known she would trade BJs for bookings! I'm from NYC, and there were so many rumors about what so many people I knew did to get signed, it wasn't funny.

3rd the labels killoff of the independent punk scene in the 80s. We had built up our own distribution networks by then, and punk bands were making some money touring the states. The whole CD thing was a slap at our networks, and virtually destroyed every label within 2 years, because the costs of CD production at that time were prohibitive. The survivors are mostly all now affiliates of majors, and there is no true indy label scene like at that time.

At this time, the labels screw these bands so hard it's almost not worth it. My friends in NYC in D Generation had gold LPs, and never received .01 in royalties after the initial advance. They were on Capitol:) As Eric said, every penny is a recoupable expense, and most contracts call for you to sign your masters away to the label. A great NY band I like, The Mooney Suzuki just had their label fold less than 10 days before their CD release. Promos were already being reviewed, and the label closed up shop. The label at first refused to even consider returning the master tape, and they had to hire a lawyer to get the tapes back.The saddest part of the whole 80's NYC Punk Metal scene that my band was part of was that the worst band of all became the biggest stars. White Zombie. This was a band that would clear the club, they were so bad. 1 song on Beavis & Butthead later, and they are an arena act. Really an ugly evil business, the weasels that run these labels should be glad there are always starry eyed dreamers coming along and dreaming of being the next big thing.And the labels really don't even need new acts all that much anymore, they have such large catalogs which they reissue repeatedly and pay next to nothing for the privilege. I could write 10 more pages on the subject, but I already sound bitter enough:)