Jump to content
LobsterLvr

Renaming Raspberries

Recommended Posts

Great to have you here horizon13!  

If I hear that intro and Eric sing the song, it will always give me chills.  Your statement of "an aural metaphor for passion" is spot on.  

There will never be another song that can touch the perfection of GATW, you know?

Cayenne

p.s.  any soundtracks of you playing GATW?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to say, but no. It was always in a club situation that never had recording facilities; and almost always with guys who never really dug Raspberries. If you're not into, or have really listened to something, getting a solid groove from other bandmates is a tough go. I can remember having to mostly drive the groove myself, and as a guitar player... that's a hard one. While the guitar really burns on GATW, it's that old Beatles backbeat and bass that's doing the driving - though I'm sure it was very collaborative arrangement. Nothing comes off like that, without the band running on all eight cylinders.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand what you mean horizon13, because the Rs were almost a niche or alternative band of sorts.  Not everyone was into them - their loss!

When the Rs rocked together, they worked the sweetest hard-candy-musical magic.  ;)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I'm glad I was able to experience those moments. I sometime tell others younger than myself, how those time were; and they look at me as I were speaking of some kind of fantasy. I now know how some of the old timers must have felt about trying to explain the old west, after everything started to get on a grid (indians, open range, possibilities, etc.). I still wear those times, though not in the sense of living in a dream world; and they seem to watch over me like a halo. I was speaking to an old friend who writes for Sony's country music division back in Nashville (Michael McCall), and we're the same age. I said: "Michael, is it just me, or did the sun blaze like a fireball back in those days? Was there not a freedom and a sense of possibility that today seems almost a myth?". He stopped me mid-way through my question, and said: "Most definitely! That was all real, and we were all lucky enough to witness, and be a part of something that will never be again". That "never be again", is what we now lament. Not in the sense of trying to relive our youth, but in the sense of just living a real existence.   

 I've also noticed that there's a common thread running through folks from that time - a gather, or reckoning of unrested souls in flux. We know something happened, we know it was special, and unlike our parents, we're not willing to simply be shoved aside by the present generation or the advent of technologies jive. What were were, is the ONLY reason what is, even has a basis. This is why kids with there head on straight, are still getting off on the music, as well as adopting some of the ideologies/ethic/dress, of those times. Historians/sociologists...  will one day have a ball with this one. But by then, I fear it may be just scoffed off... as "a myth". 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
marvin   
On 1/10/2014 at 10:37 AM, horizon13 said:

 I'm glad I was able to experience those moments. I sometime tell others younger than myself, how those time were; and they look at me as I were speaking of some kind of fantasy. I now know how some of the old timers must have felt about trying to explain the old west, after everything started to get on a grid (indians, open range, possibilities, etc.). I still wear those times, though not in the sense of living in a dream world; and they seem to watch over me like a halo. I was speaking to an old friend who writes for Sony's country music division back in Nashville (Michael McCall), and we're the same age. I said: "Michael, is it just me, or did the sun blaze like a fireball back in those days? Was there not a freedom and a sense of possibility that today seems almost a myth?". He stopped me mid-way through my question, and said: "Most definitely! That was all real, and we were all lucky enough to witness, and be a part of something that will never be again". That "never be again", is what we now lament. Not in the sense of trying to relive our youth, but in the sense of just living a real existence.   

 I've also noticed that there's a common thread running through folks from that time - a gather, or reckoning of unrested souls in flux. We know something happened, we know it was special, and unlike our parents, we're not willing to simply be shoved aside by the present generation or the advent of technologies jive. What were were, is the ONLY reason what is, even has a basis. This is why kids with there head on straight, are still getting off on the music, as well as adopting some of the ideologies/ethic/dress, of those times. Historians/sociologists...  will one day have a ball with this one. But by then, I fear it may be just scoffed off... as "a myth". 

This is an incredibly insightful and thought-provoking post. A very enjoyable read.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

H13, if I may be so bold... ...dear, the sun did blaze like a fireball during those times!! 

The Rs' and some of Eric's music speaks to that (I ALWAYS have to give some love to that ec  :)).

We shared in some kind of miracle.  The fact that you and I saw Eric play music in the beginning and have some lasting and loving memories of that time, place and with certain special people, is no less than a wonder.   

So maybe we are the only conscious beings in the universe who know about that place and that time.  Doesn't that fact make it even more meaningful?  It isn't re-living our youth I think to yearn for those people, times and places, it's merely getting in touch with a part of us which will never leave.  Why would you want to forget?

Rock and Roll will never die as they say.   

Cayenne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an incredibly insightful and thought-provoking post. A very enjoyable read.

Thank you for the compliment, but this is really how I live my day to day. While exciting, if you subtract the smoke and mirrors of today's paradigmes, we're still left with who we are. I use all the whistles and bells of todays technology, but only to reinforce what I believe to be true in my heart.

We're all at this post for a reason. And while I do think it's to celebrate Raspberries/Eric music, I also feel there's an underlying current of the same camaraderie that was the spirit back in the day (the scent of a new vinyl record? The sleeve art? The sharing!? The excitement!!? The smell of dust on vacuum tubes heating up under your turntable!!!?)  It's actually... quite a beautiful thing - and this why I joined the forum

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is so true!! 

Like I've said before, Eric is a sweet spirit to let us have a place to come and chat with our own kind.

Have we discussed our vinyl collections yet? ;)

Cayenne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
marvin   

Even though we've drifted off slightly from the topic of this thread, I've enjoyed where this thread has gone. It's always reassuring to me to read that I'm not the only one passionate about what mattered to me musically as a youth, and that there are others who also try to turn the passion into something tangible.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kirk   

Horizon13, you have eloquently stated what most of us have already known...if I may be so bold- I would add yet another dimension to your paradigm- growing up in SoCal during that era; a society permeated by the glamour, glitz and tragedy known as Hollywood.  

I wouldn't trade my time and place in history for any other...just sayin'.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being a new member, and not really knowing my way around the forum, I realized today at work what you stated above: I've really "strayed from the thread topic". I'll try in the future to find the right, or, start a new thread. I was so excited about the forum itself, that I just started rambling! Sorry...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2014 at 7:56 PM, Kirk said:

Horizon13, you have eloquently stated what most of us have already known...if I may be so bold- I would add yet another dimension to your paradigm- growing up in SoCal during that era; a society permeated by the glamour, glitz and tragedy known as Hollywood.  

I wouldn't trade my time and place in history for any other...just sayin'.  

Funny thing, my dad got stationed in 1965 at Alameda Calif., just as the whole Beach Boy/surf band/Beatles/one hit wonder thing was happening (another beautiful experience). I can only imagine, being the epicenter of the whole LA scene, and soaking up that whole vibe! It too... was a truly magic era. 

On 1/10/2014 at 1:40 PM, marvin said:

Even though we've drifted off slightly from the topic of this thread, I've enjoyed where this thread has gone. It's always reassuring to me to read that I'm not the only one passionate about what mattered to me musically as a youth, and that there are others who also try to turn the passion into something tangible.

There are thousands of others like yourself, Marvin. In my travels, you can imagine how many folks I've met that share what we read on these pages. As Mulder would say... "we're not alone". 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2014 at 8:15 PM, horizon13 said:

Being a new member, and not really knowing my way around the forum, I realized today at work what you stated above: I've really "strayed from the thread topic". I'll try in the future to find the right, or, start a new thread. I was so excited about the forum itself, that I just started rambling! Sorry...

Have you read this entire thread? 

I am called "Cayenne" for a reason. :)

It's so great to have another interesting and intelligent person here in the Community with similar interests.

Happy Dance!! Cayenne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
marvin   

Kirk as I've mentioned to you many times, the SoCal scene of from the mid 1960's into the mid 1970's totally fascinates me. I've seen many documentaries, read countless books on the music industry and how it mushroomed, snowballed, exploded during those days in LA and surrounding areas. While I wouldn't trade my Montreal/Canadian time and space for anything, part of me would have truly loved to have been in LA during those years.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kirk   

Marv, I was very aware of what was transpiring around me in that mid 60's/70's time frame...It was not all consuming- there was so much of life to be lived for someone my age during those decades.  Yet, as Horizon13 pointed out, I was cognizant that this was something special to be cherished, not only for the moment, but for the ages.  Good times!

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
marvin   
On 1/11/2014 at 6:21 PM, Kirk said:

Marv, I was very aware of what was transpiring around me in that mid 60's/70's time frame...It was not all consuming- there was so much of life to be lived for someone my age during those decades.  Yet, as Horizon13 pointed out, I was cognizant that this was something special to be cherished, not only for the moment, but for the ages.  Good times!

For me, the explosion of music and culture in LA/SoCal in the late 60's-mid 70's, rivals what happened in England in the early '60's. It might not have had the worldwide effect, but it was just as significant.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with you all here.  I lived in London in the mid-70s and it was madness and crazy fun!  Wish I'd been there for the 60s but that's life - wait that would make me and even older French chick - never mind.   ;)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kirk   

Smack in the middle of this musical phenomenon, Raspberries rocked my world...how could this not be the best time in history!  

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Duane   
On 6/24/2012 at 6:17 PM, LobsterLvr said:

I've loved the Raspberries' music for 40 years now, but I've never really loved the name they chose. And honestly, I think the name held them back professionally. So today I tried coming up with a better name for the band.

I've thought about jumping into this thread so many times but always change my mind. Not because I don't have a suggestion...I do...I know the name they should have used that would have changed music history.

I usually try to stay out of the Raspberrie conversations because I wasn't a fan back then and I often feel like I don't have a right to chime in...I don't want to offend anybody that was/is a fan. I was born in 1961 and I guess I had a sheltered childhood...I'd never heard of the Raspberries until I bought the "Definitive Collection" CD in 1997. (I'm amazed at how much I didn't know before the internet) I remember EC's debut solo album (I thought he was a new artist) but didn't buy it. I didn't become "hooked on Carmen" until the Boats album. I still prefer that album (and all the ones after it) to anything he did before it. I like some of the Raspberrie stuff...but I don't love it like some of you do (although I do love Overnight Sensation and Let's Pretend...and I could love I Wanna Be with You if it weren't for those backup vocals). I understand and respect that it's completely different for those of you who "lived" the Raspberrie era. I just don't have the nostalgic connection to the band that a lot of you do. I was happy for you people when the Raspberries got back together and did the reunion tour...but inside I was hoping Eric would get that out of his system and do some solo shows (just being honest).

OK...my take on the name Raspberries...I don't know if the name was ever cool back in the early 70's...but in my hindsighted opinion, it's a terrible name and definitely "held them back professionally". Almost any name would have been better...any of their earlier names (Cyrus Erie, The Choir, The Quick, etc.) would have been better. No matter what the name meant...they were marketed as fruit, and as Eric said "their fate was sealed"...they might as well have named the band Strawberry Shortcake or The Pudding Pops...they were never going to be popular with teenage boys, even though their music should have been.

OK...my take on the Raspberries, not the name. I think we all agree that they weren't managed properly...that they weren't promoted and marketed properly. I know that a lot of you think it was a shame that the group's talent was "wasted" and think about what they could've been...what they should've been. But the way I see it (again, all hindsight), is that it didn't matter. If they'd had a better name, better management, better marketing and promotion, AND commercial success...I think the band was still doomed to fail. I don't think they would have stayed together any longer than they did even if they'd been on top of the music world. As good as Eric and Wally were together on stage, it doesn't seem like they would ever be able to "live together". From reading Marathon Man and the Raspberries Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberries_%28band%29, it seems like the four of them were a train wreck waiting to happen. (Wally left Jim, Dave and The Choir and joined Eric and Cyrus Erie...Wally left Eric and Cyrus Erie to rejoin The Choir...Dave and Jim left (?) the Raspberries after Side 3 and were replaced for Starting Over). I don't know the details or who was at fault...I don't care and I'm not trying to stir that pot up...I'm just saying it doesn't seem like those four were destined to stay together. I wonder if Eric thinks success would have kept the Raspberries together?

OK...the moment you've all been waiting for (if anybody is still reading this)...my history changing name for the Raspberries is........................Eric Carmen. Yep, that's what "they" should have been called. I don't want to offend any of you that dearly love the Raspberries but I wish that there had never been a band named the Raspberries. There...I said it. I've wanted to say that ever since I've been a member here. I feel like I've come out of the closet! Eric Carmen WAS the Raspberries. Their best music was Eric Carmen music. As good as the other three guys were...they were all replaceable...the only one that was irreplaceable was Eric Carmen. History proves this to be true. Dave and Jim were replaced on Starting Over and that album was one of Rolling Stone's Top 10 Albums of the Year...Eric made a lot of great music without Wally...what did Wally, Dave and Jim ever do without Eric? I'm not trying to be nasty here, I've got nothing against those guys...just stating my opinion. As much as the name Raspberries held back the band professionally...the band held back Eric professionally. Just think what might have been if those first four albums were Eric Carmen albums. First, there wouldn't have been any fruitty name stigma. For that reason alone, those albums probably would have had more commercial success. Even if they had exactly the same success...that success would have been associated with the name Eric Carmen. When his fifth album came out (the All By Myself album) and he had his monster single ABM, he wouldn't have been some new guy. Instead of launching his solo career, ABM would have verified it. With five albums under his belt, he probably could have taken as long as he wanted on the Boats album. Since he would have already been established, the delays wouldn't have killed the momentum of his solo career. There might not have been any delays on the Boats album if it was his sixth album instead of his second. Heck...he might not have ever signed with Clive Davis. If he did sign with Clive, the dynamics would have been much different since his name was established...giving him leverage. There definitely wouldn't have been all the turmoil and in-fighting that there was with the Raspberries. If anybody was unhappy they could have left / been fired / replaced without breaking up the band...heck, the whole band could be replaced...and it still would have been Eric Carmen. With that kind of momentum and stature, just think how many more albums Eric might have recorded. I hate it for him that he didn't have the career that his unique talents deserved...I also hate it for his fans (namely myself ;) ) that we didn't get the benefits of that deserved career. While I'm on this hypothetical highway, let me mention the R&R HOF. From time to time it's discussed whether the Raspberries should be in for their career and their influence on other careers...whether Eric should be in for his solo career and his Raspberries work...whether the Raspberries and Eric should both be in. Now, I'll never be able to figure out what exactly the HOF is looking for but it seems that the Raspberries and Eric each come up short separately. IMHO, if that whole body of work was Eric Carmen's, I think he was in a long time ago.

Every time I read somebody talking about how great the Raspberries were and how successful they should have been, I can't help but think how great Eric Carmen was and how successful he should have been.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. Again...I mean no disrespect to the Raspberries or you Raspberries fans.

If I don't get killed/banned for this I've got a couple of other things bouncing around in my head trying to get out. :mellow:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James   

Really great, interesting post Duane.  One of the best I've read here in 10 years.  And Horizon's were really thought provoking (as Marvin said) too.

I like the name Raspberries.  I think it represents who they were, what they were trying to do ..it represents their music.  This was back in a day when that type of name could fly (" The Beatles" , "The Monkees", etc.).  They were (in 1972) fresh, new,  tasty, simple, healthy, ..they were something that would send nutrition through your system if you ingested them ...so the name fit, IMHO. 

The name was a little goofy.  But goofy was cool in the 60s....a decade they were already trying to bring back when they shoved off in 1972.

And further, even IF the name isn't a good one, a group MAKES the name.  There are a 100 terrible names for groups who are great music groups.  We don't think these names are terrible because the quality of the groups converted the (on paper)  terrible name into a cool name.  The terrible name became cool because the group was cool.   Just like a female.  Some female names are hicky (Gertrude, HIlary etc.) ...but when these names are worn by a female we are attracted to,  the hicky name becomes hot.

So I don't think the name "Raspberries" held them back.  I could be wrong (there is a first for everything).

:)

Anyway...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

James, I DO think that it's possible to overcome a "bad" name, but why make it tougher than it already is to become successful? I don't necessarily think the Beatles was a good name, but they overcame it. Raspberries not only had a bad name, but they were also marketed poorly.

Sometimes US lovers of music think that great music is what sells. But the reality is that the mass record buying public doesn't really know good music when they hear it. They just go out and buy what they are told is good. I have a playlist of over 100 songs from 2004, and I guarantee that 90% of them didn't chart, and are unknown by the masses. I bought them because I like the "music". I don't care what their name is, what they look like, what they wear, if they can dance, or  who they are dating. BUT unfortunately, the public DOES care about those things. The music is secondary. I happen to like a group called Collective Soul, but their name held them back because it doesn't accurately portray the kind of music they play. The name definitely matters.

__________

Duane,  you have a very interesting take on Raspberries. Though using his own name might have brought greater acceptance, I don't think Eric was interested in that at all. At that time, I think he was still much more interested in being in a real group...a four or five member group like the Beatles or the Byrds, By the end of their run, he was ready to go solo, but not before then.

Were the other members truly replaceable? I don't think ANY member of a group is irreplaceable but some members are much  easier to replace than others. My take of it is that Eric is as close to being irreplaceable as you can get, but as a guitarist in the band I don't think Wally is far behind. How easy is it to find talent like that? Not easy!  I love Jim's drumming and think that Eric hit the lottery twice when he had to replace Jim with Mike McBride. Now I hate saying this because I truly love Dave and his contributions to the band, but I think he was the easiest to replace and I believe the Raspberries improved with the addition of Scott McCarl.

Your most intriguing thought is that even with with great success, they would not have stayed together any longer than they did. Hmmmmm. I hope Eric weighs in on that. I'm very anxious to hear what he has to say on that. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kirk   

Remember, Raspberries were never supposed to be marketed as fruit- it was the 'Bronx Cheer'...Eric said he got it from the Little Rascals- "Oh, Raspberries!", and the name stuck.  Capitol blew it (pun intended)!

I can see a lot of valid points in Duane's post, yet, I have to ask myself, what happened to the Geffen album?  By then, Eric was a known commodity- that album should have skyrocketed to the top of the charts.  If you've been following Eric's comments on the ins and outs of the music biz, there is a lot more going on than the name of the group/person and the quality of the music they produce.

It's both fascinating and frustrating :unsure:     

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James   

The Geffen album came out 5 years after "Tonight You're Mine".  Eric Carmen had lost momentum with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums (commercial momentum)...and 5 years in between a #4 and a  #5 will dampen things even more.  Also, the Geffen album was Eric's worse to date at that time.  Still an album I like a ton, but not up there with his previous 8, IMHO.  So it's not surprising (to me) that Geffen didn't chart well.

Again, for the record, I think the name Raspberries was an ASSET, a GOOD name.  And  don't agree with Duane that the Raspberries should have been named Eric Carmen.  Though I do agree with Duane's jist - that Eric Carmen was the genius of the band. 

I also think Duane's post was one of the best and most thought-out posts I've read here.

James

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Duane   
On 2/20/2014 at 7:59 PM, Kirk said:

Remember, Raspberries were never supposed to be marketed as fruit- it was the 'Bronx Cheer'...Eric said he got it from the Little Rascals- "Oh, Raspberries!", and the name stuck.  Capitol blew it (pun intended)!

I can see a lot of valid points in Duane's post, yet, I have to ask myself, what happened to the Geffen album?  By then, Eric was a known commodity- that album should have skyrocketed to the top of the charts.  If you've been following Eric's comments on the ins and outs of the music biz, there is a lot more going on than the name of the group/person and the quality of the music they produce.

On 2/20/2014 at 8:58 PM, James said:

The Geffen album came out 5 years after "Tonight You're Mine".  Eric Carmen had lost momentum with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums (commercial momentum)...and 5 years in between a #4 and a  #5 will dampen things even more.  Also, the Geffen album was Eric's worse to date at that time.  Still an album I like a ton, but not up there with his previous 8, IMHO.  So it's not surprising (to me) that Geffen didn't chart well.

Kirk...I agree with James on the Geffen album...momentum was lost by then. Such a shame, too. It may not have been as strong overall as his previous albums but it did have several great songs on it. I Wanna Hear It From Your Lips was pop gold...I love I'm Through With Love and The Way We Used To Be and they both should have been hits...She Remembered is one of my favorite songs of all time. American as Apple Pie is just OK to me but I know a lot of people here love that song and Maybe My Baby has a strong following too (Louise Mandrell took that song to #8 on the Country Charts...or did that song take Louise Mandrell). I also liked Living Without Your Love.

I wish the Geffen album had been held up until after Dirty Dancing came out. After Hungry Eyes and Make Me Lose Control had jump started Eric's career, it would have been great to have had that album in his back pocket. Throw those two songs on there (and maybe Boardwalk Baby, too) and you've got yourself one heck of an album. I Wanna Hear It From Your Lips would've been a great follow up to Hungry Eyes and MMLC...especially while the iron was so hot!

Kirk...I've always enjoyed reading "Eric's comments on the ins and outs of the music biz".

I agree with you 100% that "It's both fascinating and frustrating"....that's the perfect way to describe it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×